Discussion:
Help with new magic system.
(too old to reply)
C***@gmail.com
2006-10-22 15:58:36 UTC
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If anyone could read the article I'm attatching to this message, and
get back to me on ways I could improve the story and rule system for
this game, that is based on Mage: The Awakening, please give me some
constructive criticism about it. I'm trying to create an authentic
coincidence only magic system, and I don't see that style out in the
RPG world right now.


A Guide To Playing Virtual Thelemite's
In The Games Mage The Awakening
& Mage The Ascenscion

By Corey White
Look for it on the White Wolf Wiki

Contents:

*Virtual Thelemites
*Coincidence Only Magick
* 1 Pentagrams
* 2 Philosophy
* 3 Rules
*Egyptian Words Of Power
* 1 Magick
* 2 Pyramid
o 2.1 Blue
o 2.2 Green
o 2.3 Red
o 2.4 White
o 2.5 Black
o 2.6 Yellow
* 3 Music
* 4 Instructions
* 6 External Links
*Spells
*Rituals - (To Be Completed)

Virtual Thelemite
------------------------

Path: Acanthus

Order: The Silver Ladder

Primary Path/Order Tool: Light & Sound Machines, Bio-feedback, Candles,
Hypnosis Recordings, Sacred Space, Aromatherapy, & Tarot

Obligation Ritual: Egyptian words of power

Worldview: Virtual Thelemites are Crowley followers of a new
generation. They incorporate all of the latest new age technologies
into their rituals including computers. Sometimes they take this too
far by experimenting with the latest alternative therapy without
considering all of the side effects or possible dangers. One mage
installed an oxygen bar in his appartment, which exploded after another
Thelemite in the room lit a cigarette. Ironically he died, and his
friend walked out of the appartment without injury.

Virtual Thelemeites need sacred space and nature, and spend much of
their time traveling, studying other cultures, and learning new
languages (including computer programing). Primarily their interest is
Egyptian in origin and they worship the Egyptian gods. To them the
watch towers are the Pyramids in Egypt. They travel to Egypt at least
once during their awakening to meditate inside of the pyramids and
create a sympathetic link in astral space. Often returning home only to
visit museums with egyptian artificats on display.

Their sympathetic link to the pyramids is what allows them to
communicate to the Gods through a sacred language that Thoth has handed
down to the Thelemites within the tradition. But the Thelemites have
taken vows not to practice any kind of vulgar magic and many disbelieve
in it. In fact other mages working vulgar magick around a Virtual
Thelemite are effected by rules for Paradox. Virtual Thelemites
practice Coincidence Only magick. That's with a K(tm).


Coincidence Only
-------------------------

There exists a shadow side to everything in life. We have our waking
life, and we have our dreams. We have the reality and we have a
potential mirrored version of that reality as seen in a reflection.
This "Coincidence Only" system of magick is based on these ideas, which
are already in Mage. Stage magicians say a great way to tap into your
natural intuition is to ask yourself the question of what you would
imagine predicting if you had a real psychic insight. The idea is
borrowed from automatic writing, and we role play using these house
rules by keeping online journals of our imagined psychic experiences,
which we compare to what is really happening in our life. Much like a
dream diary that we keep while we are awake, of our fantasies and
sometimes paranoid impressions of the world around us.

Playing mage with coincidence only has a certain style to it that is
more realistic than the rules for vulgar magic. Coincidence only magic
is practiced by members of the Virtual Thelemites. As a focus the
tradition uses the Egyptian words of power system, which was given to
them by the Toth so that they could communicate with the gods.


Contents

* 1 Pentagrams
* 2 Philosophy
* 3 Rules

[edit]
Pentagrams

Just image two pentagrams, one is pointed up, and a reversed pentagram
pointing down. This is the shadow pentagram of magick. The shadow
pentagram represents the occult aspects of reality, which we
acknowledge but are only aware of in the back of our minds. The other
pentagram represents mysticism, and science. It is the pentagram of
religion, and scholarly philosophy. It is the source of magic, and one
needs to invoke it as well when casting spells.

Lets outline the two pentagrams

------------------------------------------------.
.
. Prime
.
. Life Space
.
.
. Mind Matter
.

Prime: Culture & Religions
Space: Nations & Infrastructure
Matter Corporations & Money
Mind: Research & Education
Life: Medicine & Social Systems



. Spirit Forces
.
.
. Death Time
.
. Fate

Fate: Luck & Fortune
Death: Curses & Misfortune
Spirit: Others & Communication
Forces: Protections & Empowerments
Time: Events & Circumstance

You can also draw out the Kabbalistic Tree Of Life with these 10 types
of magic, found in the 2 pentacles. It looks like a cross below a
pentagram, with the upper level being the cultural pentagram, and the
lower cross forming the shadow.

Philosophy

The upper pentagram runs clockwise beginning with Prime, or what you
decide to call the source of creation, which infuses itself into the
fabric of space and existence. The mirrored counterpart to this in our
shadow pentagram is fate. Perhaps God didn't create reality, and it is
only random circumstance acting as the creator of destiny. And the
shadow pentagram runs counter clock wise to its mirrored pentacle, so
all of our fates are moving towards death. The mirrored aspect of death
in the upper pentagram is Life, which is the last point on the pentacle
before returning back to prime.

So what can these two pentagrams do? Well it is only a philosophy. We
all repress the shadow pentagram and only focus on the pentagram of
light. But if we meditate and are self aware of both pentagrams it
helps our lives incredibly. It helps us because we are externally
focused on the environment. This can lead to many problems, including
insanity. Insane people really aren't crazy, they are just externally
focused on their own inner experience, and can't control themselves.

The shadow pentagram is about inner focus, and dreams. But in dreams we
are still not focused enough on our own self awareness. We focus on the
outside world, and when it isn't there we perceive one that doesn't
really exist. This is the root source of magic. It is the realization
that the duality of the external world and the inner self is part of an
illusion, that causes our minds to focus externally, without enough
time spent on the self, and the spirit.

In the shadow pentagram, Fate moves forward through death and change,
which result in spirit. And spirit creates the forces, and the forces
create time. Scientists want to understand the physical forces, and
their occurrences in time. But no one has detected these forces, and no
one can percieve time. Aside from their clock on the wall.

We only see the occurrences of forces interacting in the world of
matter and space. But even in this every day existence we cannot fully
comprehend how the environment has given rise to the mind, how life was
created, or where the root source of reality origonated. But these
seeming facts are all accepted as common sense.

A newly awakened mage can't do anything about the static cycle of the
upper pentagram. But the reversed pentagram causes real change in the
world. All our characters needs to do is mediate on the illusion of
reality presented in the upper pentagram. As beautiful as it seems,
eternal, unchanging, alive and omnipresent, with a supernatural source
presiding above. This may be the true reality. But looking closer there
is another reality, which is enitrely inside our characters. Repressed
deep in their subconscious minds.

By spending time looking inward at this shadow side, and by focusing on
the duality of the mind, mages can create that magic. And from there
they can project their own understanding of the pentagrams, and their
own beliefs in magick.

Rules

In the first pentagram Prime is representative of the worlds culture
and religions. Its the source of the rest of the mundane powers. The
culture naturally builds an infrastructure around itself and turns into
a nation in its own right. The governments pass the power down to
corporations who control the economy, and circulate the transfer of
prime over in the form of money to our scientific researchers. These
researches then educate individuals, while providing technologies that
the corporations want. Such as television and computers. Doctors and
technicians personally take care of families, who then become part of
the culture within the melting pot of the pentacle. So as individuals
in the cycle we have very little power.

But in the reversed pentagram, the source of power comes from Luck and
Fortune. A person can through whatever metaphysical means, gain control
over their own fortune, and direct their destiny. The natural direction
of this process is towards destruction, and it is very easy to put
curses on your neighbors. We see tragedy every day, and read about it
in the news. because our lives are fragile & temporary.

But from the knowledge of death and destruction, people bond together.
And the occult knowledge of psychology and communication gives rise to
the powers of spirit. Occultists are aware of the spirit in everything,
and can enhance their own aura, to attract other people in certain
ways. They always seem to say just the right thing at just the right
time, and this aura extends throughout the universe. Mages can speak
with the spirits of their ancestors, and feel the energetic feedback
coming from the natural environment.

The relationships they create, and their ability to transform their own
spirit into something that is magical within itself, allows them to
master powerful forces in their lives. These forces offer them
protection from otherworldly entities, and enhancement to their
abillities. It's possible some of our mentors and heroes growing up
were actually working magic to rise above everyone else around us, and
we never knew it.

With these new powers that extend beyond simply controlling luck and
fortune, mages finally gain control over the events that shape the
course of our world's history. They can see the circumstances leading
up to the future, and predict what our world will be like years from
now. As masters of the art they can shape events because they are heros
in their own right. But they can shape circumstance with magick too.
And having mastered time, the awakened influence the mundane pentagram,
transforming civilization, and changing history forever.

Still, it isn't hard for a beginner at magick to learn how to
anticipate and direct some of these forces on a smaller scale.
Sometimes we are all focused enough that we reach a peak at what we do.
And to an extent we all have an idea of where our lives, and the world
is headed.

Egyptian words of power
-----------------------------------

Thoth handed down to the magical tradition of the Virtual Thelemites
the language of the Gods, which can only be spoken in Egyptian. It is a
coded system of meditation that uses chanting, color, and numerology to
communicate through the watchtowers of the egyptian pyramids.

He gave it to the tradition as a way to help visualize and energize
spells, and communicate within the order in the most subtle of ways.
They call it the language of the birds, or the language of angels. It
is the same as the language that Thoth origonally gave to the Pharos,
but is universal enough to be translated effortlessly into almost any
language. Thoth gave it to the tradition after Crowley tooks vows
during mediation in the pyramids never to use vulgar magic. It was
after that he founded the tradition of Thelema.

The egyptian words of power are to be only used within the alternate
Coincidence Only magic system. And all members of the Virtual
Thelemites have also sworn this oath in order to learn this magical
language, which greatly enhances their magic and protects them from
other more vulgar spells.
Contents

* 1 Magick
* 2 Pyramid
o 2.1 Blue
o 2.2 Green
o 2.3 Red
o 2.4 White
o 2.5 Black
o 2.6 Yellow
* 3 Music
* 4 Instructions
* 5 External Links

Magick

The system has 6 types of magick that form a pyramid, each type is
known as a block of the pyramid, and has a color, direction, and god
associated with it. The 6th type has a numerical value, which forms the
power and height of the pyramid.

The egyptians had 6 colors, red, green, blue, yellow, and black &
white. Each has been attributed to a God before. A mix of black and
white makes a true color, while you can also have dark shades and very
briliaint light shades.

The numerical value of a spell says something of its difficulty, as
well as finding its harmonies in numerology. Egyptian numbers are all
written with a series of 1s that look like straight lines. They didn't
have unique symbols for their numbers except for the number 10, 100,
1000 and so on. But we don't count up to 10 in this system, only to 6.

Each block in the pyramid has words that are its Subject, and Its Goal.
Each spell can have any number of subjects that relate to it, and
before building a pyramid one needs to consider which words relate to
the spell. There are fewer goals to choose from, but a person should
focus on only one Goal from any of the blocks.

Pyramid

Blue

* Color: Blue (khesbedj and irtiu)
* Direction: West (imenet)
* God: Thoth, Amon
* Arcana: Spirit / Mind

* Subject:

* People (remech)
* Spirit (bah)

* Goals:

* To be together with (henah)
* To unite with (khenem)


Green

* Color: green (wadj)
* Direction: East (yahbee)
* God: Osiris
* Arcana: Time / Space

* Subject:

* Nature (ked)
* Reality (wen-mahah)

* Goals:

* To grow and prosper (wejah or oojah)


Red

* Color: Red (desher)
* Direction: South (resy)
* God: Isis
* Arcana: Forces / Matter

* Subject:

* Self (jes)
* Mind (eeb)
* Soul (kah)

* Goals:

* To have power (sekhm)
* To have strength (pecktee)


White

* Color: White, (shesep and hedj)
* Direction: North (mehet)
* God: Ra
* Arcana: Fate / Prime

* Subject:

* Good (nefer)

* Goals:

* To go forth (peree)
* To come into being (kheper)
* To approach (khen)


Black

* Color: Black (Khem or kem)
* Direction: Down (Hahey)
* God: Anubis, Set
* Arcana: Death / Life

* Subject:

* Evil (boo-been)

* Goals:

* To depart (shem)
* To go away (rooy)
* To cease (ahb)


Yellow

* Color: Yellow (kenit and khenet)
* Direction: Up, (Pery)
* God: Thoth
* Arcana: All

* Numerology:

* Spell has a cause (redy) +1
* Spell's without a cause (nen redy) 0
* Spell's important (wer) +1
* Spell's not important (nen wer) 0
* Spell's already abundant (ashah) +1
* Spell is unique (wah) 0
* Spell's an ongoing process (seshem) +1
* Spell's not part of process (nen seshem) 0
* Spell's very general (nen mety) +1
* Spell has precise requirements (mety) 0


Music

Music is also part of this system and mages can use tonality to
communicate with spirits, and to secretly convey messages with others
in the tradition. But it is always used when chanting the words of
power.

The higher the pitch, the more they are talking about themselves, and
what has to do with the color red. Like a question mark in a sentence
asks if another person agrees with you.

The lower the pitch the more deeply they are talking about the external
world, and the color green. Like the way drum beats and bass evoke
primal forces in music.

A medium pitch generally conveys blue communication, as used in every
day conversation with other people.

Volume denotes positive and negative energy. Similar to how someone
might raise their voice when they are upset or angry.

Rythm conveys the completion of a spell. The faster the rythm the
closer it is to reality.

The length of each word when a mage is chanting should be held longer
for higher values in numerology.

Instructions

To use this system, find the egyptian words that best describe the
spell within the pieces of the pyramid.

* Determine the goal of the spell, and the subject.

* Associate it with the egyptian gods, which rule over those words.


* Finds its primary color, and direction.

* If one color or god is dominant you should use that. But if you
need to find a balance, then you can use two.

* Find the amount of Gold in the spell using numerology.

* Face the direction of your spell.

* Visualize your pyramid as being your primary color from the
direction you are facing.

* Surround the pyramid in golden light harmonized with numerology.

* Chant the name of the specific God while you visualize.

* If you have the capacity imagine hieroglyphs on the outside of
the pyramid using the egyptian words of power.

* Put your spell inside the pyramid and imagine it as the light
that is shining out into the astral plane.

* Finish by chanting the other egyptian words that you found
correspondences with to complete the spell.

* Infuse your chanting with tonality, and rythm. Hold each chant
for the length of your number. But as the spell finishes, speed up the
chanting to broadcast its completion.

* Complete any other rituals, and write down your spell in a
journal, keeping notes on whether or not it comes true.


External Links

* [Egyptian Heiroglyphs]
* [Language Of The Birds]

Spells
------

* Luck & Fortune

* Notice Synchronicity

Fate 1
Practice: Knowing
Action: Instant
Duration: Concentration
Aspect: Covert
Cost: 0 Mana

Allows a wizard to notice patterns of good luck or ill fortune,
allowing him a chance to take an opportunity or avoid a potential pit
fall.

* Charge Luck

Fate 2
Practice: Compelling
Action: Extended
Duration: Concentration
Aspect: Covert
Cost: 0 Mana

Allows a mage to charge his luck, which increases the number of
opportunities in his life. It does not help any of his die rolls, but
doors open for him in the directions he is moving.

* Influence Fortune

Fate 3
Practice: Perfecting
Action: Instant
Duration: Lasting
Aspect: Covert
Cost: 1 Mana

Increases the chance of something specific happening in the general
vicinity of the mage.

* Bestow Blessings

Fate 4
Practice: Patterning
Action: Instant
Duration: Lasting
Aspect: Covert
Cost: 1 Mana

This spell allows a mage to cast Charge Luck on someone else.

* Hands Of Fate

Fate 5
Practice: Making
Action: Extended
Duration: Concentration
Aspect: Covert
Cost: 1 Mana

With this spell mages can increase the probability of success at
anything they do, by a small margin.

* Curses & Misfortune

* Unusually Bad Day

Death 1
Practice: Compelling
Action: Instant
Duration: Lasting
Aspect: Covert
Cost: 1 Mana

This spell causes someone to have a really bad day.

* Cause Crisis

Death 2
Practice: Fraying
Action: Instant
Duration: Concentration
Aspect: Covert
Cost: 1 Mana

A spell that will create a crisis in another persons life, causing them
to drop everything and deal with it.

* Illness or Injury

Death 3
Practice: Fraying
Action: Extended
Duration: Lasting
Aspect: Covert
Cost: 2 Mana

This spell will actually injure another person, or lead to some form of
illness. But thier doctors will be able to help them recover, unless
they already have a weakened immune system.

* Speedy Death

Death 4
Practice: Unraveling
Action: Instant
Duration: Lasting
Aspect: Covert
Cost: 2 Mana

This moves circumstances around a person in the worst of ways. Speeding
up the chances of a person dying before it is there time. But doesn't
effect actual combat.

* Total Disaster

Death 5
Practice: Unmaking
Action: Extended
Duration: Concentration
Aspect: Covert
Cost: 2 Mana

This spell causes a total disaster, and will often make its way to the
nightly news. It can't always be controlled, and has a chance of
misfiring, which could hurt other people than who the mage intends.

* Others & Communication

* Smooth Talking

Spirit 1
Practice: Compelling
Action: Instant
Duration: Lasting
Aspect: Covert
Cost: 2 Mana

This spell gives a mage an advantage in all social situations, or when
doing any public speaking. He surounds himself with an aura of
authority and compassion.

* Two Steps Ahead

Spirit 2
Practice: Knowing
Action: Instant
Duration: Concentration
Aspect: Covert
Cost: 2 Mana

This spell gives a mage insight into the life of another person, and
gives them an idea of what may be happening in their not to distant
future.

* Percieve Energies

Spirit 3
Practice: Unveiling
Action: Instant
Duration: Concentration
Aspect: Covert
Cost: 2 Mana

This spell lets a mage sense the energies present in the environment
and situations, which may be happening around them that they cannot
see.

* Speaking With Spirit

Spirit 4
Practice: Ruling
Action: Extended
Duration: Lasting
Aspect: Covert
Cost: 3 Mana

This spell allows a mage to communicate with spirits, including
animals, the dead, and those within the natural environment. If a
spirit has any power a mage can influence them to work towards certain
goals.

* Unity With All

Spirit 5
Practice: Perfecting
Action: Extended
Duration: Concentration
Aspect: Covert
Cost: 3 Mana

A mage becomes possesed for a time by the spirits of the universe, and
can channel knowledge about anything & everything.

* Protection & Empowerment

* Strong Will

Forces 1
Practice: Compelling
Action: Extended
Duration: Lasting
Aspect: Covert
Cost: 3 Mana

A mage can use this spell to set out and improve themselves or
accomplish a task. The game is put on hold, while a mage takes time to
study and perfect whatever they decide on while earning character
points. A mage can spend these earned character points on themselves,
at the sacrifice of removing their player from the game.

* Dispell Magic

Forces 2
Practice: Shielding
Action: Instant
Duration: Concentration
Aspect: Covert
Cost: 3 Mana

Until this point a mage hasn't been able to defend himself from magic.
But now a mage is able to protect himself from evil spirits, demonic
forces, and black magic. Which are often the source of common problems
in life.

* Peak Performance

Forces 3
Practice: Perfecting
Action: Instant
Duration: Concentration
Aspect: Covert
Cost: 3 Mana

A mage can use this skill to reach his or her peak performance. All of
their natural talents, and skills are increased for the time of the
spell, and they able to accomplish almost anything. Unless the task is
near impossible the mage automatically succeeds at her skill rolls for
a scene.

* Aura of Peace

Forces 4
Practice: Ruling
Action: Extended
Duration: Lasting
Aspect: Covert
Cost: 4 Mana

The mage surrounds himself with an aura of peace effecting everyone
around him. If there is anger or hostility in the air it will break up,
and fights will immediately come to an end. This can be explained away
by the mages abillity to resist the conflict without harming anyone.

* Circle Of Power

Forces 5
Practice: Weaving
Action: Extended
Duration: Lasting
Aspect: Covert
Cost: 4 Mana

This allows the mage to enchant an area or a person, allowing him to
cast any of these rotes temporarily on the target.

* Events & Circumstance

* Percieve Time

Time 1
Practice: Unveiling
Action: Extended
Duration: Concentration
Aspect: Covert
Cost: 4 Mana

A mage can look ahead in the future and know exactly what will happen,
even years from now.

* The Butterfly Effect

Time 2
Practice: Ruling
Action: Instant
Duration: Lasting
Aspect: Covert
Cost: 4 Mana

By preforming just a simple task a mage can potentialy change the
course of future history.

* Glimpse Of Truth

Time 3
Practice: Compelling
Action: Instant
Duration: Concentration
Aspect: Covert
Cost: 4 Mana

A mage can broadcast a message throughout the world, giving people the
subtle impressions of ideas or feelings. Its like a spontaneous holiday
the mage creates.

* Forward Momentum

Time 4
Practice: Ruling
Action: Extended
Duration: Lasting
Aspect: Covert
Cost: 4 Mana

The mage can start political campaigns, and sway new movements within
our world.

* Initiate Awakened

Time 5
Practice: Weaving
Action: Instant
Duration: Lasting
Aspect: Covert
Cost: 4 Mana

This allows the mage to preform a real miracle that the target cannot
explain. When this spell is cast on a person, there is no way to
explain what happens with trickery or coincidence. What happens appears
to be real magick, and that individuals life is forever altered. They
in effect awaken.
Rob Kelk
2006-10-22 16:35:08 UTC
Permalink
On 22 Oct 2006 08:58:36 -0700, ***@gmail.com wrote:

<snip>
Post by C***@gmail.com
If anyone could read the article I'm attatching to this message, and
get back to me on ways I could improve the story and rule system for
this game, that is based on Mage: The Awakening, please give me some
constructive criticism about it. I'm trying to create an authentic
coincidence only magic system, and I don't see that style out in the
RPG world right now.
Are you looking for help converting it to one of the myraid of GURPS or
D&D magic systems? If not, I don't see why you crossposted it to
rec.games.frp.dnd or rec.games.frp.gurps ...

<snip>
- --
Rob Kelk Personal address (ROT-13): eboxryx -ng- tznvy -qbg- pbz
"There's always somebody who's going to hate your work, no matter
how good it is. DON'T LET HIM CHASE YOU AWAY FROM WRITING, BECAUSE
THAT WAY HE WINS." - Robert M. Schroeck, 18 July 2006
C***@gmail.com
2006-10-22 16:41:53 UTC
Permalink
Just incase someone knew of something similar to this that is already
out there.
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Hash: SHA1
<snip>
Post by C***@gmail.com
If anyone could read the article I'm attatching to this message, and
get back to me on ways I could improve the story and rule system for
this game, that is based on Mage: The Awakening, please give me some
constructive criticism about it. I'm trying to create an authentic
coincidence only magic system, and I don't see that style out in the
RPG world right now.
Are you looking for help converting it to one of the myraid of GURPS or
D&D magic systems? If not, I don't see why you crossposted it to
rec.games.frp.dnd or rec.games.frp.gurps ...
<snip>
- --
Rob Kelk Personal address (ROT-13): eboxryx -ng- tznvy -qbg- pbz
"There's always somebody who's going to hate your work, no matter
how good it is. DON'T LET HIM CHASE YOU AWAY FROM WRITING, BECAUSE
THAT WAY HE WINS." - Robert M. Schroeck, 18 July 2006
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Douglas Berry
2006-10-22 18:31:59 UTC
Permalink
On 22 Oct 2006 08:58:36 -0700 ***@gmail.com said the following
in rec.games.frp.gurps and I was immediately reminded of 1,000
Chinchillas singing Handel's "Messiah" for some reason...
Post by C***@gmail.com
If anyone could read the article I'm attatching to this message, and
get back to me on ways I could improve the story and rule system for
this game, that is based on Mage: The Awakening, please give me some
constructive criticism about it. I'm trying to create an authentic
coincidence only magic system, and I don't see that style out in the
RPG world right now.
Try Ars Magica.

And was there a reason for reposting the entire article rather than
posting a link?
--

Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2011

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the
source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a
stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as
good as dead: his eyes are closed." - Albert Einstein
Bruce Grubb
2006-10-23 04:23:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Douglas Berry
in rec.games.frp.gurps and I was immediately reminded of 1,000
Chinchillas singing Handel's "Messiah" for some reason...
Post by C***@gmail.com
If anyone could read the article I'm attatching to this message, and
get back to me on ways I could improve the story and rule system for
this game, that is based on Mage: The Awakening, please give me some
constructive criticism about it. I'm trying to create an authentic
coincidence only magic system, and I don't see that style out in the
RPG world right now.
Try Ars Magica.
And was there a reason for reposting the entire article rather than
posting a link?
Likely because people like Matt and Symbol admit they don't follows links.
Matt Frisch
2006-10-23 10:21:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce Grubb
Post by Douglas Berry
in rec.games.frp.gurps and I was immediately reminded of 1,000
Chinchillas singing Handel's "Messiah" for some reason...
Post by C***@gmail.com
If anyone could read the article I'm attatching to this message, and
get back to me on ways I could improve the story and rule system for
this game, that is based on Mage: The Awakening, please give me some
constructive criticism about it. I'm trying to create an authentic
coincidence only magic system, and I don't see that style out in the
RPG world right now.
Try Ars Magica.
And was there a reason for reposting the entire article rather than
posting a link?
Likely because people like Matt and Symbol admit they don't follows links.
Don't extend the invalidity of your links to the rest of the world, Bruce.
Other people post links that validate what they say, or at the very least
say what the person claims they do. Yours don't. In order to pull off a
persecution complex, you need at least a veneer of being persecuted,
instead of the way that you go all in-your-face with the I-Deserve-It
sauce.
Bruce L Grubb
2006-10-23 15:52:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce Grubb
Post by Douglas Berry
in rec.games.frp.gurps and I was immediately reminded of 1,000
Chinchillas singing Handel's "Messiah" for some reason...
Post by C***@gmail.com
If anyone could read the article I'm attatching to this message, and
get back to me on ways I could improve the story and rule system for
this game, that is based on Mage: The Awakening, please give me some
constructive criticism about it. I'm trying to create an authentic
coincidence only magic system, and I don't see that style out in the
RPG world right now.
Try Ars Magica.
And was there a reason for reposting the entire article rather than
posting a link?
Likely because people like Matt and Symbol admit they don't follows links.
Don't extend the invalidity of your links to the rest of the world, Bruce.
Don't extend the invalidity of your ability to read linke that prove
you have no idea on what you are talking about to the rest of the
world. Matt. You are like Sheff who keep posting his little challange
over in sci.archeology and claiming 'censorship' even though several
people (including me) quoted ever blasted moronic word of the thing.

You and all the alignment supported have claim you have disproved the
points despite urls showing otherwise, JUST LIKE SHEFF.
Matt Frisch
2006-10-24 01:55:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce Grubb
Post by Douglas Berry
in rec.games.frp.gurps and I was immediately reminded of 1,000
Chinchillas singing Handel's "Messiah" for some reason...
Post by C***@gmail.com
If anyone could read the article I'm attatching to this message, and
get back to me on ways I could improve the story and rule system for
this game, that is based on Mage: The Awakening, please give me some
constructive criticism about it. I'm trying to create an authentic
coincidence only magic system, and I don't see that style out in the
RPG world right now.
Try Ars Magica.
And was there a reason for reposting the entire article rather than
posting a link?
Likely because people like Matt and Symbol admit they don't follows links.
Don't extend the invalidity of your links to the rest of the world, Bruce.
Don't extend the invalidity of your ability to read linke that prove
you have no idea on what you are talking about to the rest of the
world. Matt.
I did read your links, originally. But then you just kept using the same
ones over and over again, and kept attributing them incorrectly every time
(and even occasionally finding new ways to misinterpret old links). The sun
rises every morning for 30 years, you begin to expect that it will happen
the next day as well.

You also use the words of others as a replacement for your own thoughts.
That's quite horrible.
Post by Bruce L Grubb
You and all the alignment supported have claim you have disproved the
points despite urls showing otherwise, JUST LIKE SHEFF.
You not accepting your points as being massively disproven != your points
remain valid.
Bruce Grubb
2006-10-24 07:31:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce Grubb
Post by Douglas Berry
in rec.games.frp.gurps and I was immediately reminded of 1,000
Chinchillas singing Handel's "Messiah" for some reason...
Post by C***@gmail.com
If anyone could read the article I'm attatching to this message, and
get back to me on ways I could improve the story and rule system for
this game, that is based on Mage: The Awakening, please give me some
constructive criticism about it. I'm trying to create an authentic
coincidence only magic system, and I don't see that style out in the
RPG world right now.
Try Ars Magica.
And was there a reason for reposting the entire article rather than
posting a link?
Likely because people like Matt and Symbol admit they don't follows links.
Don't extend the invalidity of your links to the rest of the world, Bruce.
Don't extend the invalidity of your ability to read linke that prove
you have no idea on what you are talking about to the rest of the
world. Matt.
I did read your links,
WHICH IS WHY YOU SO MANY THINGS WRONG. We got another Sheff.
Matt Frisch
2006-10-24 23:49:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce Grubb
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce Grubb
Post by Douglas Berry
in rec.games.frp.gurps and I was immediately reminded of 1,000
Chinchillas singing Handel's "Messiah" for some reason...
Post by C***@gmail.com
If anyone could read the article I'm attatching to this message, and
get back to me on ways I could improve the story and rule system for
this game, that is based on Mage: The Awakening, please give me some
constructive criticism about it. I'm trying to create an authentic
coincidence only magic system, and I don't see that style out in the
RPG world right now.
Try Ars Magica.
And was there a reason for reposting the entire article rather than
posting a link?
Likely because people like Matt and Symbol admit they don't follows links.
Don't extend the invalidity of your links to the rest of the world, Bruce.
Don't extend the invalidity of your ability to read linke that prove
you have no idea on what you are talking about to the rest of the
world. Matt.
I did read your links,
WHICH IS WHY YOU SO MANY THINGS WRONG.
Soon as you feel up to translating that into english, Sparky, you go right
ahead.
Bruce L Grubb
2006-11-11 07:59:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce Grubb
Post by Matt Frisch
I did read your links,
WHICH IS WHY YOU SO MANY THINGS WRONG.
Soon as you feel up to translating that into english, Sparky, you go right
ahead.
Every word is english. So you still have not got clue one.
Matt Frisch
2006-11-11 10:25:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce Grubb
Post by Matt Frisch
I did read your links,
WHICH IS WHY YOU SO MANY THINGS WRONG.
Soon as you feel up to translating that into english, Sparky, you go right
ahead.
Every word is english.
True, but the sentence in its totality comes out to being engrish.

It's an illogical and nonsensical response in its most direct translation
into actual english, since you seem to be deriding me for doing what you
told me to do.

While I do not discount the possibility that you're simply too stupid to
realize what you are claiming, it is quite possible that you simply
massively botched your response. Either marks you as the imbecile that you
are, so either is about equally likely.
David Johnston
2006-11-11 10:28:42 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 10:25:41 GMT, Matt Frisch
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce Grubb
Post by Matt Frisch
I did read your links,
WHICH IS WHY YOU SO MANY THINGS WRONG.
Soon as you feel up to translating that into english, Sparky, you go right
ahead.
Every word is english.
True, but the sentence in its totality comes out to being engrish.
It's an illogical and nonsensical response in its most direct translation
into actual english,
Oh please. It's just missing a word between "YOU" and "SO".
Matt Frisch
2006-11-11 22:19:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 10:25:41 GMT, Matt Frisch
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce Grubb
Post by Matt Frisch
I did read your links,
WHICH IS WHY YOU SO MANY THINGS WRONG.
Soon as you feel up to translating that into english, Sparky, you go right
ahead.
Every word is english.
True, but the sentence in its totality comes out to being engrish.
It's an illogical and nonsensical response in its most direct translation
into actual english,
Oh please. It's just missing a word between "YOU" and "SO".
Ok, but place that into context. Bruce whines I don't read his links. When
I say that I *did* read them, he complains that this is the reason I get
things wrong.

If the only problem with the sentence is grammar, then it unleashes a whole
new problem of contextual idiocy. Assuming that this sentence is supposed
to mean the opposite of what it does when you add the word "GET" in there
(since adding in GET causes the sentence to mean that Bruce is disagreeing
with his own viewpoint) means that either:

A) Bruce doesn't understand what "I did read your links" means
or
B) Bruce is acknowledging that his links are bullshit that don't support
him

No matter which of the 3 ways you slice that sentence, Bruce is lowering
the limbo bar of human stupidity.
Bruce L Grubb
2006-11-27 09:44:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by David Johnston
On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 10:25:41 GMT, Matt Frisch
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce Grubb
Post by Matt Frisch
I did read your links,
WHICH IS WHY YOU SO MANY THINGS WRONG.
Soon as you feel up to translating that into english, Sparky, you go right
ahead.
Every word is english.
True, but the sentence in its totality comes out to being engrish.
It's an illogical and nonsensical response in its most direct translation
into actual english,
Oh please. It's just missing a word between "YOU" and "SO".
Ok, but place that into context.
YOU don't so why should we. Goose and gander.
Matt Frisch
2006-12-01 07:38:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by David Johnston
On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 10:25:41 GMT, Matt Frisch
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce Grubb
Post by Matt Frisch
I did read your links,
WHICH IS WHY YOU SO MANY THINGS WRONG.
Soon as you feel up to translating that into english, Sparky, you go right
ahead.
Every word is english.
True, but the sentence in its totality comes out to being engrish.
It's an illogical and nonsensical response in its most direct translation
into actual english,
Oh please. It's just missing a word between "YOU" and "SO".
Ok, but place that into context.
YOU don't so why should we. Goose and gander.
Damn Bruce, this is crap even for you. I have done nothing of the sort.

Kindly cite ONE INSTANCE- EVER - where I have ignored context.

Just one. I triple dog dare you, you disingenous coward.

I also notice how you snipped out the part where I made your own words
directly contradict your own intent. There are only 2 possible ways to
interpret the original statement:

1) "WHICH IS WHY YOU SO MANY THINGS WRONG" is gibberish and has no meaning,
and my orginal assertion that it was not in english is correct

or

2) "WHICH IS WHY YOU GET SO MANY THINGS WRONG" <--- note grammatical
correctness; is you saying that because I used to read your links, I was
getting things wrong, and that therefore all of your links were steaming
piles of shit that we are all correct for no longer reading them.

There is no third choice. So, please...which is it, Bruce? Your answer
should not be comprised of anything beyond "1" or "2", nothing else is
needed. However, I anticipate you to either (a) cease responding (best
result), or (b) snip this section out again and force me to restate it
until the best result is achieved or you actually answer. I fully expect
(b).
Bruce L Grubb
2006-12-01 11:30:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by David Johnston
On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 10:25:41 GMT, Matt Frisch
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce Grubb
Post by Matt Frisch
I did read your links,
WHICH IS WHY YOU SO MANY THINGS WRONG.
Soon as you feel up to translating that into english, Sparky, you go right
ahead.
Every word is english.
True, but the sentence in its totality comes out to being engrish.
It's an illogical and nonsensical response in its most direct translation
into actual english,
Oh please. It's just missing a word between "YOU" and "SO".
Ok, but place that into context.
YOU don't so why should we. Goose and gander.
Damn Bruce, this is crap even for you. I have done nothing of the sort.
Kindly cite ONE INSTANCE- EVER - where I have ignored context.
EVERY FREAKING REPLY. GET A CLUE.
Some Guy
2006-11-12 23:39:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce Grubb
Post by Matt Frisch
I did read your links,
WHICH IS WHY YOU SO MANY THINGS WRONG.
Soon as you feel up to translating that into english, Sparky, you go right
ahead.
Every word is english.
True, but the sentence in its totality comes out to being engrish.
http://www.engrish.com/

[snip]
Symbol
2006-10-26 13:16:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce Grubb
Post by Douglas Berry
in rec.games.frp.gurps and I was immediately reminded of 1,000
Chinchillas singing Handel's "Messiah" for some reason...
Post by C***@gmail.com
If anyone could read the article I'm attatching to this message, and
get back to me on ways I could improve the story and rule system for
this game, that is based on Mage: The Awakening, please give me some
constructive criticism about it. I'm trying to create an authentic
coincidence only magic system, and I don't see that style out in the
RPG world right now.
Try Ars Magica.
And was there a reason for reposting the entire article rather than
posting a link?
Likely because people like Matt and Symbol admit they don't follows links.
Lying again Bruce. I don't follow *your* links because you are incompetent
and apparantly incapable of linking to data that's relevant to whatever
argument you try to make.

If you want another chance how about linking to the post where I claim
that I don't follow any links at all? Meanwhile I won't be holding my
breath.
Bruce Grubb
2006-10-26 21:36:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce Grubb
Post by Bruce Grubb
Post by Douglas Berry
in rec.games.frp.gurps and I was immediately reminded of 1,000
Chinchillas singing Handel's "Messiah" for some reason...
Post by C***@gmail.com
If anyone could read the article I'm attatching to this message, and
get back to me on ways I could improve the story and rule system for
this game, that is based on Mage: The Awakening, please give me some
constructive criticism about it. I'm trying to create an authentic
coincidence only magic system, and I don't see that style out in the
RPG world right now.
Try Ars Magica.
And was there a reason for reposting the entire article rather than
posting a link?
Likely because people like Matt and Symbol admit they don't follows
links.
Lying again Bruce. I don't follow *your* linke.
Then you admit not following link ergo I am NOT lying. Thank you for
PROVING my statement to be TRUE.
Stephenls
2006-10-26 22:07:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce Grubb
Then you admit not following link ergo I am NOT lying. Thank you for
PROVING my statement to be TRUE.
PEOPLE who routinely LITTER their USENET POSTS with WORDS in ALLCAPS
often COME ACROSS as KOOKS.
Bruce L Grubb
2006-10-27 11:35:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephenls
Post by Bruce Grubb
Then you admit not following link ergo I am NOT lying. Thank you for
PROVING my statement to be TRUE.
PEOPLE who routinely LITTER their USENET POSTS with WORDS in ALLCAPS
often COME ACROSS as KOOKS.
Which considering you used more than me means *you* are the kook. You
know it is pathatic how many alignment supporters continue to produce
posts that make a a cinder block look smart.
Jasin Zujovic
2006-10-27 13:20:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Stephenls
Post by Bruce Grubb
Then you admit not following link ergo I am NOT lying. Thank you for
PROVING my statement to be TRUE.
PEOPLE who routinely LITTER their USENET POSTS with WORDS in ALLCAPS
often COME ACROSS as KOOKS.
Which considering you used more than me means *you* are the kook.
Simply astounding.
--
Jasin Zujovic
David Johnston
2006-10-27 15:05:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Stephenls
Post by Bruce Grubb
Then you admit not following link ergo I am NOT lying. Thank you for
PROVING my statement to be TRUE.
PEOPLE who routinely LITTER their USENET POSTS with WORDS in ALLCAPS
often COME ACROSS as KOOKS.
Which considering you used more than me means *you* are the kook. You
know it is pathatic how many alignment supporters continue to produce
posts that make a a cinder block look smart.
Or, just conceivably, he might have been mocking you.
Stephenls
2006-10-27 15:41:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Which considering you used more than me means *you* are the kook.
Or, alternately, that I was engaging in hyperbole.
Post by Bruce L Grubb
You know it is pathatic how many alignment supporters continue to produce
posts that make a a cinder block look smart.
Who said I support alignment?
Ken Andrews
2006-10-27 17:56:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephenls
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Which considering you used more than me means *you* are the kook.
Or, alternately, that I was engaging in hyperbole.
Post by Bruce L Grubb
You know it is pathatic how many alignment supporters continue to produce
posts that make a a cinder block look smart.
Who said I support alignment?
You did, as soon as you disagreed with Bruce. If you disagree with Bruce,
you support alignment. That's just the way it goes.
Stephenls
2006-10-27 19:02:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Andrews
You did, as soon as you disagreed with Bruce. If you disagree with Bruce,
you support alignment. That's just the way it goes.
Well, I suppose it could be worse. He could have taken that attitude and
become a successful politician.
Hong Ooi
2006-11-01 10:45:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephenls
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Which considering you used more than me means *you* are the kook.
Or, alternately, that I was engaging in hyperbole.
Post by Bruce L Grubb
You know it is pathatic how many alignment supporters continue to produce
posts that make a a cinder block look smart.
Who said I support alignment?
I don't like you anymore.

Also, everyone: come check out www.circvsmaximvs.com! Where I am not a
moderator!

(Yes Grubb, that includes you too. We need the comedy.)


Hong
Matt Frisch
2006-10-28 05:53:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce Grubb
Post by Bruce Grubb
Post by Bruce Grubb
Post by Douglas Berry
in rec.games.frp.gurps and I was immediately reminded of 1,000
Chinchillas singing Handel's "Messiah" for some reason...
Post by C***@gmail.com
If anyone could read the article I'm attatching to this message, and
get back to me on ways I could improve the story and rule system for
this game, that is based on Mage: The Awakening, please give me some
constructive criticism about it. I'm trying to create an authentic
coincidence only magic system, and I don't see that style out in the
RPG world right now.
Try Ars Magica.
And was there a reason for reposting the entire article rather than
posting a link?
Likely because people like Matt and Symbol admit they don't follows
links.
Lying again Bruce. I don't follow *your* linke.
Then you admit not following link ergo I am NOT lying. Thank you for
PROVING my statement to be TRUE.
You are lying. You are lying by gross exageration. You take a post that has
nothing to do with you, and when someone who also has nothing to do with
you suggests putting the lengthy post into a link instead of posting it
here, you go completely off-tangent and blanketly accuse
everyone-who-is-not you of never reading any links.

It's a steaming crock of shit, and anyone with 2 brain cells to rub
together knows it (which is why you don't). People don't read *YOUR* links,
Bruce, and with good cause. Your links are worthless garbage.

Please do not extend your monumental personal flaws onto the rest of
humanity.
Symbol
2006-10-31 11:57:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce Grubb
Post by Bruce Grubb
Post by Bruce Grubb
Post by Douglas Berry
in rec.games.frp.gurps and I was immediately reminded of 1,000
Chinchillas singing Handel's "Messiah" for some reason...
Post by C***@gmail.com
If anyone could read the article I'm attatching to this message, and
get back to me on ways I could improve the story and rule system for
this game, that is based on Mage: The Awakening, please give me some
constructive criticism about it. I'm trying to create an authentic
coincidence only magic system, and I don't see that style out in the
RPG world right now.
Try Ars Magica.
And was there a reason for reposting the entire article rather than
posting a link?
Likely because people like Matt and Symbol admit they don't follows
links.
Lying again Bruce. I don't follow *your* linke.
Then you admit not following link ergo I am NOT lying. Thank you for
PROVING my statement to be TRUE.
Not only are you lying, you are also stupid. Two proofs in two posts.
Kudos.
Del Rio
2006-10-31 21:01:46 UTC
Permalink
[ whatever ]

Is it possible that the people who don't like B.Grubb could
just not reply to him? It's sad how many promising threads
have been swallowed by this endlessly repetetive flamewar.
--
"I know I promised, Lord, never again. But I also know
that YOU know what a weak-willed person I am."
Justisaur
2006-10-31 22:35:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Del Rio
[ whatever ]
Is it possible that the people who don't like B.Grubb could
just not reply to him?
You seem to be implying there's at least one person who does like him.
I think there's a flaw in your logic. (Unless it's Ron or Terry, and
only for the chaos he causes, not actually liking him.)
Post by Del Rio
It's sad how many promising threads
have been swallowed by this endlessly repetetive flamewar.
I agree here. He's like the Xbox fanbois posting in PS2 groups and
vice versa. He has no idea what the hell he's talking about, and just
shows up so he can say his system is better than the other.

- Justisaur
Bruce L Grubb
2006-11-01 17:20:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Justisaur
Post by Del Rio
[ whatever ]
Is it possible that the people who don't like B.Grubb could
just not reply to him?
You seem to be implying there's at least one person who does like him.
There have been serveral who have agreed with what I said and have like
my insights in other topics. When it comes to alignment or logic holes
(such as with arcane spells) in D&D it seems the brain cells turn off.
Max Wilson
2006-11-02 00:55:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Justisaur
You seem to be implying there's at least one person who does like him.
There have been serveral who have agreed with what I said and have like
my insights in other topics. When it comes to alignment or logic holes
(such as with arcane spells) in D&D it seems the brain cells turn off.
Yes, but that's not the same as agreeing with what you've said on this
topic. When I was first looking into GURPS, I enjoyed your D&D-to-GURPS
conversion notes, and I thought your initial comment on Vlad the
Impaler's GURPS traits and/or D&D alignment was interesting--but it was
only worth a single post, and you hammered it for what seemed like
thirty. In particular, you're most interesting when you're not arguing
with people like Matt and Symbol because then your posts become
repetitive.

-Max Wilson
Symbol
2006-11-01 09:18:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Del Rio
[ whatever ]
Is it possible that the people who don't like B.Grubb could
just not reply to him? It's sad how many promising threads
have been swallowed by this endlessly repetetive flamewar.
You're probably right. Its not like he adds anything useful and its the
same shit he's been spouting for years. I'm getting bored of baiting him
myself to be honest.
Bruce L Grubb
2006-11-01 17:16:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Del Rio
[ whatever ]
Is it possible that the people who don't like B.Grubb could
just not reply to him? It's sad how many promising threads
have been swallowed by this endlessly repetetive flamewar.
Take it up with Matt and Symbol whose post make a K level kid look
smart.
Matt Frisch
2006-11-02 00:54:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Del Rio
[ whatever ]
Is it possible that the people who don't like B.Grubb could
just not reply to him? It's sad how many promising threads
have been swallowed by this endlessly repetetive flamewar.
Take it up with Matt and Symbol whose post make a K level kid look
smart.
Stop posting your irrelevant drivel, and there will be no need to respond
to it (since there would be nothing to respond to, as you never post
anything that isn't irrelevant drivel).

You obviously WANT to be flamed, there is no other explanation for your
behavior. You don't play D&D, you don't want to play D&D, you don't even
understand the most fundamental rules of the game and have no wish to learn
them. Why don't you stick your posts in the GURPS group?

Oh, I know...as the recent crossposting storm of the last 6-ish weeks
proved, the people in the GURPS group have the same opinion of you as we
do. You aren't welcome anywhere, so you you just go for anything that will
give you validation, no matter how negative it is. How sad.
Bruce L Grubb
2006-11-11 08:02:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Del Rio
[ whatever ]
Is it possible that the people who don't like B.Grubb could
just not reply to him? It's sad how many promising threads
have been swallowed by this endlessly repetetive flamewar.
Take is up with Symbol and Matt. It is their idiotic posts that keep
this going. Any reference I use is called 'stupid', 'moronic',
'doesn't know what they are talking about', etc show these guys could
not argue their way out of a paper bag.
Stephenls
2006-11-11 08:16:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Take is up with Symbol and Matt. It is their idiotic posts that keep
this going. Any reference I use is called 'stupid', 'moronic',
'doesn't know what they are talking about', etc show these guys could
not argue their way out of a paper bag.
Dude, it's the Internet. For that matter it's the Internet RPG community.

Outside /b/, you will never find a larger group of people who enjoy
knocking someone over and then kicking him endlessly in the ribs as hard
as they can while laughing, pointing, and insisting that he was asking
for it and must in fact enjoy it.

You're fucked. If you really want to participate in the USENET gaming
community, here's my advice: Get a new ISP, get a new email address, get
a new USENET handle, start posting under that identity, and never let
anyone realize it's the same person as Bruce L Grubb. Because you've
been tagged, and the hyenas of the Internet are never going to stop
chasing you.

If you don't do those things, you're asking for it. And in fact you must
enjoy it. Ha ha ha ha ha! *points*
David Johnston
2006-11-11 08:32:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephenls
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Take is up with Symbol and Matt. It is their idiotic posts that keep
this going. Any reference I use is called 'stupid', 'moronic',
'doesn't know what they are talking about', etc show these guys could
not argue their way out of a paper bag.
Dude, it's the Internet. For that matter it's the Internet RPG community.
Outside /b/, you will never find a larger group of people who enjoy
knocking someone over and then kicking him endlessly in the ribs as hard
as they can while laughing, pointing, and insisting that he was asking
for it and must in fact enjoy it.
You're fucked. If you really want to participate in the USENET gaming
community, here's my advice: Get a new ISP, get a new email address, get
a new USENET handle, start posting under that identity, and never let
anyone realize it's the same person as Bruce L Grubb.
His compulsion to start crossposted threads between gurps and D&D
about alignment would always give him away.
Matt Frisch
2006-11-11 10:22:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Del Rio
[ whatever ]
Is it possible that the people who don't like B.Grubb could
just not reply to him? It's sad how many promising threads
have been swallowed by this endlessly repetetive flamewar.
Take is up with Symbol and Matt. It is their idiotic posts that keep
this going.
Wouldn't be the fault of you, now responding to a week old post. You're
blameless. You have only the best interests of D&D at heart when you post
your drivel here.
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Any reference I use is called 'stupid', 'moronic',
'doesn't know what they are talking about', etc show
..how you cannot reference an accurate source for any subject to save your
life.

Go away, Bruce.
Bruce L Grubb
2006-11-12 06:50:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Del Rio
[ whatever ]
Is it possible that the people who don't like B.Grubb could
just not reply to him? It's sad how many promising threads
have been swallowed by this endlessly repetetive flamewar.
Take is up with Symbol and Matt. It is their idiotic posts that keep
this going.
Wouldn't be the fault of you, now responding to a week old post.
You are really THAT ignoraent of how usenet works??? Sheesh.
Matt Frisch
2006-11-12 18:36:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Del Rio
[ whatever ]
Is it possible that the people who don't like B.Grubb could
just not reply to him? It's sad how many promising threads
have been swallowed by this endlessly repetetive flamewar.
Take is up with Symbol and Matt. It is their idiotic posts that keep
this going.
Wouldn't be the fault of you, now responding to a week old post.
You are really THAT ignoraent of how usenet works??? Sheesh.
If you were so interested in not keeping a thread going, then you would
stop responding to old threads. That you persist in replying means that
your "Oh poor me" act is just a really bad lie.

It's clear that you enjoy the abuse. It's the only explanation for your
behavior.
Bruce L Grubb
2006-11-13 07:11:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Del Rio
[ whatever ]
Is it possible that the people who don't like B.Grubb could
just not reply to him? It's sad how many promising threads
have been swallowed by this endlessly repetetive flamewar.
Take is up with Symbol and Matt. It is their idiotic posts that keep
this going.
Wouldn't be the fault of you, now responding to a week old post.
You are really THAT ignoraent of how usenet works??? Sheesh.
If you were so interested in not keeping a thread going,
More drivel as you will not admit the statements you and symbol have
made have no weight.
The fact is Michael A. Stackpole derided alignment and Cocytus saw the
same problems in D&D 3.x alignment that Roger Moore tried to gloss over
with AD&D1. The fact alignment threads keep popping up shows the
mechanic has problems and the main one is the radar gamer - ie 'it
detects evil so it is alright to kill it'. Heck even AD&D2 admited
that good and evil were culture consepts.
Matt Frisch
2006-11-13 19:52:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Del Rio
[ whatever ]
Is it possible that the people who don't like B.Grubb could
just not reply to him? It's sad how many promising threads
have been swallowed by this endlessly repetetive flamewar.
Take is up with Symbol and Matt. It is their idiotic posts that keep
this going.
Wouldn't be the fault of you, now responding to a week old post.
You are really THAT ignoraent of how usenet works??? Sheesh.
If you were so interested in not keeping a thread going,
More drivel as you will not admit the statements you and symbol have
made have no weight.
Why would I admit to something so blatantly untrue?

Also a nice attempt to clip out the reference to you responding to old
threads to keep the thread going while protesting its existance, lying
hypocrite. Of course, "Bruce Grubb" and "Lying Hypocrite" are
internationally recognized as synonyms, so this is not at all surprising.
Post by Bruce L Grubb
The fact is Michael A. Stackpole derided alignment
No, he just said he didn't like it, and made a grand and sweeping
generalization with no facts to back him up regarding its use. Notably, R.
Tal games do not use alignment systems, and the gamers he would be most
exposed to would be using R. Tal games.
Post by Bruce L Grubb
and Cocytus saw the
same problems in D&D 3.x alignment
A problem that nobody has ever been able to demonstrate beyond "I don't
like alignment", which is not a flaw in the system, but a difference in
preference.
Post by Bruce L Grubb
that Roger Moore tried to gloss over
with AD&D1.
You're trying to refer to that paladins and lawful good article, aren't
you? Fucking moron.
Post by Bruce L Grubb
The fact alignment threads keep popping up shows
...that most people are stupid, with your as their poster child.
Post by Bruce L Grubb
the
mechanic has problems and the main one is the radar gamer - ie 'it
detects evil so it is alright to kill it'.
Which is a problem with the player, not the system. Still. No matter how
many times you try to pin this problem on the system, it will NEVER be the
problem of the system. So stop doing it.
Del Rio
2006-11-13 20:41:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce L Grubb
mechanic has problems and the main one is the radar gamer - ie 'it
detects evil so it is alright to kill it'.
Which is a problem with the player, not the system. Still. No matter how
many times you try to pin this problem on the system, it will NEVER be the
problem of the system. So stop doing it.
Lump alignment and lie detection in with the rest of the
information gathering magic, and drop it to bottom of the
ocean! Cast off the shackles of black & white absolutism!
Join the revolution, do it today!

In a slightly more serious vein, though - imagine the LotR if
one of Faramir's band had just cast Detect Lie and Know
Alignment on Frodo.
--
"I know I promised, Lord, never again. But I also know
that YOU know what a weak-willed person I am."
Bruce Grubb
2006-11-14 16:14:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce L Grubb
More drivel as you will not admit the statements you and symbol have
made have no weight.
Why would I admit to something so blatantly untrue?
So you claim and again you fail to get the point.
Symbol
2006-11-14 16:25:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce Grubb
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce L Grubb
More drivel as you will not admit the statements you and symbol have
made have no weight.
Why would I admit to something so blatantly untrue?
So you claim and again you fail to get the point.
The funniest thing about this is that you probably are serious, you
probably think that any arguments you've made are valid or relevant and
that you probably think you aren't a total fuckwit.

I have bad news Grubb ol' son......
Bruce L Grubb
2006-11-15 06:24:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Symbol
Post by Bruce Grubb
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce L Grubb
More drivel as you will not admit the statements you and symbol have
made have no weight.
Why would I admit to something so blatantly untrue?
So you claim and again you fail to get the point.
The funniest thing about this is that you probably are serious, you
probably think that any arguments you've made are valid or relevant and
that you probably think you aren't a total fuckwit.
Name calling which shows tha tyou can not argue the actual points.
Sheff tried that too didn't work
Symbol
2006-11-16 10:07:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Symbol
Post by Bruce Grubb
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce L Grubb
More drivel as you will not admit the statements you and symbol have
made have no weight.
Why would I admit to something so blatantly untrue?
So you claim and again you fail to get the point.
The funniest thing about this is that you probably are serious, you
probably think that any arguments you've made are valid or relevant and
that you probably think you aren't a total fuckwit.
Name calling which shows tha tyou can not argue the actual points.
Logic isn't your hobby Grubb. Besides there aren't any points to argue and
there never are with you. Just drool to mop up.
Bruce L Grubb
2006-11-16 17:18:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Symbol
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Symbol
Post by Bruce Grubb
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce L Grubb
More drivel as you will not admit the statements you and symbol
have
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Symbol
Post by Bruce Grubb
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce L Grubb
made have no weight.
Why would I admit to something so blatantly untrue?
So you claim and again you fail to get the point.
The funniest thing about this is that you probably are serious, you
probably think that any arguments you've made are valid or relevant
and
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Symbol
that you probably think you aren't a total fuckwit.
Name calling which shows tha tyou can not argue the actual points.
Logic isn't your hobby Grubb
Yes it is as shown in my argument with Sheff over in Sci.anthrology.
On a side note what is this crossposted to alt.games.whitewolf and
alt.games.warcraft? While they have alternative magic system that
aspect of this topic when south with you and Matt long time ago.
Some Guy
2006-11-16 00:15:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce Grubb
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce L Grubb
More drivel as you will not admit the statements you and symbol have
made have no weight.
Why would I admit to something so blatantly untrue?
So you claim and again you fail to get the point.
It's going to be a good year for makers of irony meters, I trow!
Bruce L Grubb
2006-11-16 08:19:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Some Guy
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce L Grubb
More drivel as you will not admit the statements you and symbol have
made have no weight.
Why would I admit to something so blatantly untrue?
Post by Bruce L Grubb
So you claim and again you fail to get the point.
It's going to be a good year for makers of irony meters, I trow!
Considering that alignment has had dozens of articles which repeat the
same problems in each
addition (AD&D1, AD&D2, D&D 3.x)

Cocytus gave one example <http://www.gamegrene.com/node/320> that was a
variation of the one Roger Moore tried to excuse way back in Dragon #51

An article in Dragon #81 argued against any non-evil character from
using
poison purely on alignment grounds which put it at odds with the CN
alignment of Heracles at that time. (CN is a *non-evil* alignment
Symbol and Matt in case you have not figured that out)

As recent as Dragon # 300, Dragon # 306, and Dragon #327 old problems
with alignment have surfaced. Been there seen it before it is LONG past
time to make some hamburger out of the sacred cow.

The alignment defenders come off like the people who tried to defend
the 1st level magic-user's one spell in AD&D - they simply do not want
to admit that the mechanic is broken.
Matt Frisch
2006-11-17 00:53:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Some Guy
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce L Grubb
More drivel as you will not admit the statements you and symbol have
made have no weight.
Why would I admit to something so blatantly untrue?
Post by Bruce L Grubb
So you claim and again you fail to get the point.
It's going to be a good year for makers of irony meters, I trow!
Considering that alignment has had dozens of articles which repeat the
same problems in each
There are dozens of articles claiming that we never went to the moon.

That proves Armstrong was on a soundstage.
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Cocytus gave one example <http://www.gamegrene.com/node/320> that was a
variation of the one Roger Moore tried to excuse way back in Dragon #51
Still waiting for you to use words and ideas of your own. I imagine that
the existance of the human race will come into question before this
happens.
Post by Bruce L Grubb
An article in Dragon #81 argued against any non-evil character from
using
poison purely on alignment grounds which put it at odds with the CN
alignment of Heracles at that time. (CN is a *non-evil* alignment
Symbol and Matt in case you have not figured that out)
Is there a point to this? Or is making snide insinuations after saying
nothing all that you can do?

But hey, Dragon #81...I'm sure that's a 3.0 or 3.5 related article, right?

Of course, we're always the ones who bring up previous editions. Never you.

You have no business mentioning problems in the rulesets of any game
considering the imbalances in GURPS 3.0, which is the most recent edition.
Post by Bruce L Grubb
The alignment defenders come off like the people who tried to defend
the 1st level magic-user's one spell in AD&D - they simply do not want
to admit that the mechanic is broken.
Since you've never even remotely approached a reason that it is broken (to
say nothing of actually proving a break), I'll just sit here and
comfortably laugh in your face.
Matt Frisch
2006-11-17 00:48:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce Grubb
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce L Grubb
More drivel as you will not admit the statements you and symbol have
made have no weight.
Why would I admit to something so blatantly untrue?
So you claim and again you fail to get the point.
Which point am I not getting? That you never post a link that supports you?
That you've never come up with even a baseline arguement against alignment
aside from "some people don't like it"? That your prefered method of
arguement is to snip other people's comments so that you can either twist
their words or pretend what they said didn't exist?

Believe me, I got those points.
Bruce L Grubb
2006-11-17 12:10:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce Grubb
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce L Grubb
More drivel as you will not admit the statements you and symbol have
made have no weight.
Why would I admit to something so blatantly untrue?
So you claim and again you fail to get the point.
Which point am I not getting?
If you have to ask then you have not got enough of a clue to make any
kind of comments.
Matt Frisch
2006-11-17 16:13:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce Grubb
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce L Grubb
More drivel as you will not admit the statements you and symbol have
made have no weight.
Why would I admit to something so blatantly untrue?
So you claim and again you fail to get the point.
Which point am I not getting?
If you have to ask then you have not got enough of a clue to make any
kind of comments.
I'll refer you to the comment on how I "get" that you clip other people's
posts to cherry pick arguements, since you did that exact thing here, you
disingenous intellectual coward.

C'mon Bruce, this is something you're fond of saying, that "you don't get
it", but you -never- elaborate on what this is. So do it. What is this
grand thing that nobody but you gets? Are you incapable of articulating it
beyond "You don't get it?", or is the goal there to create a
self-fulfilling prophecy by trying to retain mystery by never telling
anyone what it is.

If your goal in posting your irrelevant drivel is as altruistic as you like
to claim it is, then here is your golden opportunity to live up to your own
lofty goals. Explain in great detail (using no links, and let's call it 5-6
good sized paragraphs) exactly what it is we don't get.

$10 says you dodge, because you're a disingeous intellectual coward.
Bruce L Grubb
2006-11-20 07:47:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce Grubb
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce L Grubb
More drivel as you will not admit the statements you and symbol have
made have no weight.
Why would I admit to something so blatantly untrue?
So you claim and again you fail to get the point.
Which point am I not getting?
If you have to ask then you have not got enough of a clue to make any
kind of comments.
I'll refer you to the comment on how I "get" that you clip other people's
posts to cherry pick arguements, since you did that exact thing here, you
disingenous intellectual coward.
Which your fellow alignment defenders started and continue to do. Look
at what David Klassen did in the current 'Famous Persons or Characters
that are True Neutral' thread; the section:

You missed the Willy Wonka's Alignment? thread back in 2004 which had
him CN, CG, LG, NG, and even a few that threw out LE (see
<http://tinyurl.com/y9g4xa> for how this view can be reached) so your
assuption is on shaky ground from the get go.

was snipped which changed the whole thurst of my arguement!

[rest follows]

As one of the alignment defenders pointed out we only see one day in
Willy Wonka's life which according to them is not enough time to really
slap an alignment on the guy. They conviently forgot that since other
people DID give him an alignment others did not see it that way.
---

What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

As the Willy Wonka thread proved even alignment's defenders cannot
agree on WHEN assigning an alignment is justified much LESS on what
alignment is valid.

Willy Wonka thread also shows another problem with 'graphing' alignment
which Jason Nelson-Brown on WotC own website calls a 'good' method.
Other supports of alignment like Andy Collins
<http://www.andycollins.net/Theories/alignment.htm> and James Beach
<http://www.frontiernet.net/~jamesstarlight/AlignmentPaper.html> have
issues with how Alignment has been used in the past and this has shaded
its
current use.

Even Gygax, the man who developed alignment, doesn't use it anymore.
THAT should tell you something.



Even Gygax the man who INVENTED alignment
Matt Frisch
2006-11-21 07:30:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce Grubb
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce L Grubb
More drivel as you will not admit the statements you and symbol have
made have no weight.
Why would I admit to something so blatantly untrue?
So you claim and again you fail to get the point.
Which point am I not getting?
If you have to ask then you have not got enough of a clue to make any
kind of comments.
I'll refer you to the comment on how I "get" that you clip other people's
posts to cherry pick arguements, since you did that exact thing here, you
disingenous intellectual coward.
Which your fellow alignment defenders started and continue to do.
Asserted without evidence.

[lengthy post of irrelevant, repetitious, pointless, proving nothing
bullshit removed]

I notice how you, once again, clipped things you couldn't respond to.

I called you out, to explain for us to the best of your ability what it is
-exactly- that we "don't get". It was your golden opportunity to better
yourself in the eyes of all who read your useless drivel. A clear goal, a
stated purpose. Most people would take this chance by the horns and throw
out their best effort in well-constructed verse to illustrate to the best
of their ability the basic thrust of their arguement. What did you do? You
ignored it. How sadly typical of you.

I shall take from your persistance in avoiding this issue that you are in
fact just full of shit. There is nothing to "get", because if there was,
you would be able to articulate it in even the most rudimentary fashion,
instead of hiding behind your veil of mystery and making selective edits of
other people's posts. You're a disingenous intellectual coward, and you're
also a -real- coward. Intellectual cowardice and plain old ordinary
cowardice not being the same thing, but you neatly manage to encompass both
at the same time. Congrats, I guess.

All further references on your part to other people not getting your
useless drivel will be refered to this post, where your useless drivel has
been exposed by you as the steaming cowflop that it is.

In the same way that you've lost the ability to refer to old version of D&D
rules without counter-references to GURPS 3.0, this particular bullet in
the 25 cent plastic dartgun of your grotesquely inferior intellect has been
fired, missed, and will never be used again.
Sea Wasp
2006-11-23 23:33:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce L Grubb
As the Willy Wonka thread proved even alignment's defenders cannot
agree on WHEN assigning an alignment is justified much LESS on what
alignment is valid.
Which is irrelevant, pretty much. It doesn't matter if some OTHER GM
disagrees on the alignment interpretation. All that matters is if in
*THEIR* game, or in *MY* game, whatever interpretations are used are
consistent. Other GM's interpretations don't affect my campaign, and
vice versa.

Alignment is a useful tool for many of us. Like any other part of an
RPG system, if you let the rules be a straitjacket, it'll hurt you.

This is true of GURPS, AD&D, Rolemaster, Feng Shui, Vampire, or any
other RPG ever written.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
Bruce L Grubb
2006-11-24 08:15:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Bruce L Grubb
As the Willy Wonka thread proved even alignment's defenders cannot
agree on WHEN assigning an alignment is justified much LESS on what
alignment is valid.
Which is irrelevant, pretty much. It doesn't matter if some OTHER GM
disagrees on the alignment interpretation. All that matters is if in
*THEIR* game, or in *MY* game, whatever interpretations are used are
consistent. Other GM's interpretations don't affect my campaign, and
vice versa.
Except when you change GMs; that is when the whole arguement of
alignment being "universal" dies a quick death. GUPRS 3e's universal
consept did much the same crash and burn when Supers came out and only
GURPS 4e manage to straighten out the resulting mess.
Post by Sea Wasp
Alignment is a useful tool for many of us. Like any other part of an
RPG system, if you let the rules be a straitjacket, it'll hurt you.
The thing is alignment as a straitjacket concept is there when a class
has to be set alignment which is what the rules say. But if in
different D&D-like but not D&D settings (like d20 Warcraft) a class
does not have to be that alignment (the Warcraft Paladin is certainly
NOT the D&D Paladin)
Post by Sea Wasp
This is true of GURPS, AD&D, Rolemaster, Feng Shui, Vampire, or any
other RPG ever written.
It is hard to see how the rules in GURPS could be a "straitjacket" as
GURPS is a much more modular system where you take the pieces to make
the world as it suits your needs. AD&D, Rolemaster, Feng Shui, and
Vampire by contrast all deal with specific settings with their own set
of rules.

Furtheremore any RPG can have bad rules and continuing to say they work
when they clearly don't is the equivalent of pulling your hat over your
eyes, shoving your fingers in your eas and yelling 'I can't hear you'.

I saw this with AD&D players defending the 1st level magic-users having
only one spell rule which WotC realized was braindead and finally
killed in D&D 3.x. 'You don't know how to play the class', 'the rule
makes perfect sence', and 'Others have no problem with this rule' (SAME
arguments for alignment I might add) were touted as counterearguments.
There were far few articles on magic-users having problems then there
were on alignment and yet the class got a total overhaul. Alignment
continues to be a headache and far too prone to abuse; the fact that
the guy who invented it has stopped using it should tell you something.


Alignment is one of those D&D rules just like where the justification
of its existance and how it worked were obviously pathetic to anyone
with a functioning brain in their head. The arcane magic-armor rule
has similar problems - there is just no logic for it as the rule came
first and then reasons for the rule came afterword.
Sea Wasp
2006-11-24 12:28:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Bruce L Grubb
As the Willy Wonka thread proved even alignment's defenders cannot
agree on WHEN assigning an alignment is justified much LESS on what
alignment is valid.
Which is irrelevant, pretty much. It doesn't matter if some OTHER GM
disagrees on the alignment interpretation. All that matters is if in
*THEIR* game, or in *MY* game, whatever interpretations are used are
consistent. Other GM's interpretations don't affect my campaign, and
vice versa.
Except when you change GMs; that is when the whole arguement of
alignment being "universal" dies a quick death.
When you change GM's, pretty much EVERYTHING changes, so... what's
the problem? Get HIS interpretations.


GUPRS 3e's universal
Post by Bruce L Grubb
consept did much the same crash and burn when Supers came out and only
GURPS 4e manage to straighten out the resulting mess.
No system is truly universal, except for No System, so to speak.
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Sea Wasp
Alignment is a useful tool for many of us. Like any other part of an
RPG system, if you let the rules be a straitjacket, it'll hurt you.
The thing is alignment as a straitjacket concept is there when a class
has to be set alignment which is what the rules say.
Like I said; you let the rules use you, or you use the rules. If you
permit the straitjacket to be put on you, you can't complain if it's a
bit restrictive.
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Sea Wasp
This is true of GURPS, AD&D, Rolemaster, Feng Shui, Vampire, or any
other RPG ever written.
It is hard to see how the rules in GURPS could be a "straitjacket" as
GURPS is a much more modular system where you take the pieces to make
the world as it suits your needs.
Points are a straitjacket if applied strictly. ANY PBS, especially
ones that make recommendations as to keeping points "balanced", is a
straitjacket from the get-go if adhered to strictly.

And if not adhered to strictly, then you're doing what any sane GM
does with alignment. Judgment calls.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
Ken Andrews
2006-11-24 13:16:20 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 24 Nov 2006 12:28:30 GMT, Sea Wasp
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Bruce L Grubb
As the Willy Wonka thread proved even alignment's defenders cannot
agree on WHEN assigning an alignment is justified much LESS on what
alignment is valid.
Which is irrelevant, pretty much. It doesn't matter if some OTHER GM
disagrees on the alignment interpretation. All that matters is if in
*THEIR* game, or in *MY* game, whatever interpretations are used are
consistent. Other GM's interpretations don't affect my campaign, and
vice versa.
Except when you change GMs; that is when the whole arguement of
alignment being "universal" dies a quick death.
When you change GM's, pretty much EVERYTHING changes, so... what's
the problem? Get HIS interpretations.
GUPRS 3e's universal
Post by Bruce L Grubb
consept did much the same crash and burn when Supers came out and only
GURPS 4e manage to straighten out the resulting mess.
No system is truly universal, except for No System, so to speak.
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Sea Wasp
Alignment is a useful tool for many of us. Like any other part of an
RPG system, if you let the rules be a straitjacket, it'll hurt you.
The thing is alignment as a straitjacket concept is there when a class
has to be set alignment which is what the rules say.
Like I said; you let the rules use you, or you use the rules. If you
permit the straitjacket to be put on you, you can't complain if it's a
bit restrictive.
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Sea Wasp
This is true of GURPS, AD&D, Rolemaster, Feng Shui, Vampire, or any
other RPG ever written.
It is hard to see how the rules in GURPS could be a "straitjacket" as
GURPS is a much more modular system where you take the pieces to make
the world as it suits your needs.
Points are a straitjacket if applied strictly. ANY PBS, especially
ones that make recommendations as to keeping points "balanced", is a
straitjacket from the get-go if adhered to strictly.
And if not adhered to strictly, then you're doing what any sane GM
does with alignment. Judgment calls.
No.

If you are using D&D alignment, then your "judgment call" simply
proves that alignment is broken, as it's not flexible. If it was
flexible, then you wouldn't need to make your "judgment call".

If you are using GURPS pacts and powers, then your judgment call is
reasonable extrapolation of the requirements of the gods on the part
of the GM. That demonstrates the flexibility of the system, as each
GM is allowed to decide what his gods consider right and proper.

These are quite obviously different; why don't you see that?
David Johnston
2006-11-24 22:13:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Andrews
If you are using D&D alignment, then your "judgment call" simply
proves that alignment is broken, as it's not flexible. If it was
flexible, then you wouldn't need to make your "judgment call".
If you are using GURPS pacts and powers, then your judgment call is
reasonable extrapolation of the requirements of the gods on the part
of the GM. That demonstrates the flexibility of the system, as each
GM is allowed to decide what his gods consider right and proper.
Alignment does not keep the GM from deciding what his gods consider
right and proper. How could it?
Post by Ken Andrews
These are quite obviously different; why don't you see that?
Because it isn't. As I said, you can have a pact with Good. In fact
having a pact with Good is an automatic part of using the Moral power
source. N
Sea Wasp
2006-11-24 22:28:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Andrews
On Fri, 24 Nov 2006 12:28:30 GMT, Sea Wasp
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Bruce L Grubb
As the Willy Wonka thread proved even alignment's defenders cannot
agree on WHEN assigning an alignment is justified much LESS on what
alignment is valid.
Which is irrelevant, pretty much. It doesn't matter if some OTHER GM
disagrees on the alignment interpretation. All that matters is if in
*THEIR* game, or in *MY* game, whatever interpretations are used are
consistent. Other GM's interpretations don't affect my campaign, and
vice versa.
Except when you change GMs; that is when the whole arguement of
alignment being "universal" dies a quick death.
When you change GM's, pretty much EVERYTHING changes, so... what's
the problem? Get HIS interpretations.
GUPRS 3e's universal
Post by Bruce L Grubb
consept did much the same crash and burn when Supers came out and only
GURPS 4e manage to straighten out the resulting mess.
No system is truly universal, except for No System, so to speak.
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Sea Wasp
Alignment is a useful tool for many of us. Like any other part of an
RPG system, if you let the rules be a straitjacket, it'll hurt you.
The thing is alignment as a straitjacket concept is there when a class
has to be set alignment which is what the rules say.
Like I said; you let the rules use you, or you use the rules. If you
permit the straitjacket to be put on you, you can't complain if it's a
bit restrictive.
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Sea Wasp
This is true of GURPS, AD&D, Rolemaster, Feng Shui, Vampire, or any
other RPG ever written.
It is hard to see how the rules in GURPS could be a "straitjacket" as
GURPS is a much more modular system where you take the pieces to make
the world as it suits your needs.
Points are a straitjacket if applied strictly. ANY PBS, especially
ones that make recommendations as to keeping points "balanced", is a
straitjacket from the get-go if adhered to strictly.
And if not adhered to strictly, then you're doing what any sane GM
does with alignment. Judgment calls.
No.
If you are using D&D alignment, then your "judgment call" simply
proves that alignment is broken, as it's not flexible.
Of course it's flexible. I'm the GM. I make the decisions on what I
consider "lawful" and "good" and "chaotic" and "evil".

If it was
Post by Ken Andrews
flexible, then you wouldn't need to make your "judgment call".
So, GURPS isn't flexible, because I have to make judgment calls in
that for other things?
Post by Ken Andrews
If you are using GURPS pacts and powers, then your judgment call is
reasonable extrapolation of the requirements of the gods on the part
of the GM. That demonstrates the flexibility of the system, as each
GM is allowed to decide what his gods consider right and proper.
And how am I as a GM in D&D -- or any other system -- NOT allowed to
decide that?
Post by Ken Andrews
These are quite obviously different; why don't you see that?
Because they're not?
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
Ken Andrews
2006-11-27 20:24:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Ken Andrews
On Fri, 24 Nov 2006 12:28:30 GMT, Sea Wasp
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Sea Wasp
This is true of GURPS, AD&D, Rolemaster, Feng Shui, Vampire, or any
other RPG ever written.
It is hard to see how the rules in GURPS could be a "straitjacket" as
GURPS is a much more modular system where you take the pieces to make
the world as it suits your needs.
Points are a straitjacket if applied strictly. ANY PBS, especially ones
that make recommendations as to keeping points "balanced", is a
straitjacket from the get-go if adhered to strictly.
And if not adhered to strictly, then you're doing what any sane GM does
with alignment. Judgment calls.
No.
If you are using D&D alignment, then your "judgment call" simply
proves that alignment is broken, as it's not flexible.
Of course it's flexible. I'm the GM. I make the decisions on what I
consider "lawful" and "good" and "chaotic" and "evil".
If it was
Post by Ken Andrews
flexible, then you wouldn't need to make your "judgment call".
So, GURPS isn't flexible, because I have to make judgment calls in that
for other things?
Post by Ken Andrews
If you are using GURPS pacts and powers, then your judgment call is
reasonable extrapolation of the requirements of the gods on the part
of the GM. That demonstrates the flexibility of the system, as each
GM is allowed to decide what his gods consider right and proper.
And how am I as a GM in D&D -- or any other system -- NOT allowed to
decide that?
Post by Ken Andrews
These are quite obviously different; why don't you see that?
Because they're not?
I think your sarcasm detector's busted.
Bruce L Grubb
2006-11-26 09:40:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Andrews
If you are using D&D alignment, then your "judgment call" simply
proves that alignment is broken, as it's not flexible. If it was
flexible, then you wouldn't need to make your "judgment call".
If you are using GURPS pacts and powers, then your judgment call is
reasonable extrapolation of the requirements of the gods on the part
of the GM. That demonstrates the flexibility of the system, as each
GM is allowed to decide what his gods consider right and proper.
These are quite obviously different; why don't you see that?
For the same reason people can't seen that alignment IS broken - they
simply do not want to admit there is something wrong with the system.
In GURPS 3e we freely admited that the 'will resist' roll uses for
mental disadvantages was majorly screwed up and tried to fix it in the
Compandium I with an optional rule that became standard in GURPS 4e.

Here agan are Prof. William Headley (B314-5) mental disads:

Duty (ISWAT, Extremely Hazardous, FR: 15) -20 B133
Fanatacism (Destroy all Things Man was not meant to know, extreme)
-15 B136
Guilt Complex -5 B137
Insomniac (Severe) -15 B140
Nightmares (CR: 12) -5 B144
Bibliophile -1
Distrusts Germans (-1 reaction from especially touchy Germans) -1
Makes decisions by consulting the tarot (Compulsion) -1

Alignmentwise you really can't say much about him but traits give you
some baseline to gover his behavior.
Sea Wasp
2006-11-26 15:36:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Ken Andrews
If you are using D&D alignment, then your "judgment call" simply
proves that alignment is broken, as it's not flexible. If it was
flexible, then you wouldn't need to make your "judgment call".
If you are using GURPS pacts and powers, then your judgment call is
reasonable extrapolation of the requirements of the gods on the part
of the GM. That demonstrates the flexibility of the system, as each
GM is allowed to decide what his gods consider right and proper.
These are quite obviously different; why don't you see that?
For the same reason people can't seen that alignment IS broken - they
simply do not want to admit there is something wrong with the system.
This would not be **quite** so laughably ridiculous if you weren't
talking about *ME*, the man who tears apart virtually ALL systems
equally and who used to use a Frankensteinien blend of 15-20 systems.
There IS no unflawed system ever made, and never will be, and I've
never been reluctant to point out the flaws in all of them.

The fact is that alignment is a perfectly good tool. I've used it for
my entire gaming career. If you stick by the letter of the rules,
sure, you can run into trouble. Which is true of EVERY SINGLE GAME IN
EXISTENCE. RPG "rules" are guidelines, not true rules, because the
rules cannot cover every circumstance, and are not inherently adjusted
for the demands of every campaign -- and each different campaign has
hugely differing aspects which change the dynamics of the powers, the
strategies and tactics, and the proper interpretation of large
portions of the ruleset.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
Richard Clayton
2006-11-26 16:34:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Ken Andrews
If you are using D&D alignment, then your "judgment call" simply
proves that alignment is broken, as it's not flexible. If it was
flexible, then you wouldn't need to make your "judgment call".
If you are using GURPS pacts and powers, then your judgment call is
reasonable extrapolation of the requirements of the gods on the part
of the GM. That demonstrates the flexibility of the system, as each
GM is allowed to decide what his gods consider right and proper.
These are quite obviously different; why don't you see that?
For the same reason people can't seen that alignment IS broken - they
simply do not want to admit there is something wrong with the system.
This would not be **quite** so laughably ridiculous if you weren't
talking about *ME*, the man who tears apart virtually ALL systems
equally and who used to use a Frankensteinien blend of 15-20 systems.
There IS no unflawed system ever made, and never will be, and I've never
been reluctant to point out the flaws in all of them.
The fact is that alignment is a perfectly good tool. I've used it
for my entire gaming career. If you stick by the letter of the rules,
sure, you can run into trouble. Which is true of EVERY SINGLE GAME IN
EXISTENCE. RPG "rules" are guidelines, not true rules, because the rules
cannot cover every circumstance, and are not inherently adjusted for the
demands of every campaign -- and each different campaign has hugely
differing aspects which change the dynamics of the powers, the
strategies and tactics, and the proper interpretation of large portions
of the ruleset.
Nicely said.
--
[The address listed is a spam trap. To reply, take off every zig.]
Richard Clayton
"During wars laws are silent." -- Cicero
Del Rio
2006-11-26 20:24:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sea Wasp
The fact is that alignment is a perfectly good tool. I've used it for
my entire gaming career. If you stick by the letter of the rules,
sure, you can run into trouble. Which is true of EVERY SINGLE GAME IN
EXISTENCE. RPG "rules" are guidelines, not true rules, because the
rules cannot cover every circumstance, and are not inherently adjusted
for the demands of every campaign -- and each different campaign has
hugely differing aspects which change the dynamics of the powers, the
strategies and tactics, and the proper interpretation of large
portions of the ruleset.
Beautifully put. Alignment still blows, though. ;-)
--
"I know I promised, Lord, never again. But I also know
that YOU know what a weak-willed person I am."
Sea Wasp
2006-11-27 13:02:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Del Rio
Post by Sea Wasp
The fact is that alignment is a perfectly good tool. I've used it for
my entire gaming career. If you stick by the letter of the rules,
sure, you can run into trouble. Which is true of EVERY SINGLE GAME IN
EXISTENCE. RPG "rules" are guidelines, not true rules, because the
rules cannot cover every circumstance, and are not inherently adjusted
for the demands of every campaign -- and each different campaign has
hugely differing aspects which change the dynamics of the powers, the
strategies and tactics, and the proper interpretation of large
portions of the ruleset.
Beautifully put. Alignment still blows, though. ;-)
Alignment is like democracy. It's a terrible method of tracking the
moral/ethical behavior of characters. All the other game-mechanic
methods are worse.

All of them still end up relying on GM judgment calls.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
Del Rio
2006-11-27 15:10:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Del Rio
Beautifully put. Alignment still blows, though. ;-)
Alignment is like democracy. It's a terrible method of tracking the
moral/ethical behavior of characters. All the other game-mechanic
methods are worse.
All of them still end up relying on GM judgment calls.
Actually I should be clear: I don't mind alignment as a
convenient shorthand for how NPCs should be expected to behave.
I don't like the "detectable mystical aura" aspect of it. Evil
people, with the exception of a handful of insane people,
aren't dedicated to the abstract cause of Evil, and shouldn't
wear their affiliation on their sleeve: "team jersey" play
bores me, and I hate that anybody with access to some low level
spells automatically knows which side everyone is on.

That's why my game has detectable auras only for supernatural
entities, or for people who have very strongly aligned
themselves with such (Paladins, for example). I also use the
little known AD&D 1st Ed rule that nobody under 8th level
radiates an alignment, regardless.
--
"I know I promised, Lord, never again. But I also know
that YOU know what a weak-willed person I am."
Symbol
2006-11-27 15:34:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Del Rio
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Del Rio
Beautifully put. Alignment still blows, though. ;-)
Alignment is like democracy. It's a terrible method of tracking the
moral/ethical behavior of characters. All the other game-mechanic
methods are worse.
All of them still end up relying on GM judgment calls.
Actually I should be clear: I don't mind alignment as a
convenient shorthand for how NPCs should be expected to behave.
I don't like the "detectable mystical aura" aspect of it. Evil
people, with the exception of a handful of insane people,
aren't dedicated to the abstract cause of Evil, and shouldn't
wear their affiliation on their sleeve: "team jersey" play
bores me, and I hate that anybody with access to some low level
spells automatically knows which side everyone is on.
.....or since only a handful of insane people and creatures are dedicated
to the abstract cause of Evil detecting someone's alignment doesn't tell
you nearly enough about them!

It does not follow that being able to see somebodies alignment aura means
you can tell what team they are on due to the very thing you've described!

Scrooge is Evil, he will detect as Evil but what does that tell you? He
hasn't directly harmed anyone (other than through neglect), he obeys the
laws of the land and is very much a part of the local community.
Del Rio
2006-11-27 16:05:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Symbol
.....or since only a handful of insane people and creatures are dedicated
to the abstract cause of Evil detecting someone's alignment doesn't tell
you nearly enough about them!
It does not follow that being able to see somebodies alignment aura means
you can tell what team they are on due to the very thing you've described!
Scrooge is Evil, he will detect as Evil but what does that tell you? He
hasn't directly harmed anyone (other than through neglect), he obeys the
laws of the land and is very much a part of the local community.
The fact that it might not tell you *everything* you need to
know about their behavior and affiliations still doesn't make a
very convincing argument for why I would want something so
inherently silly and genre-breaking ** in my campaign (meaning
that it breaks nearly every fantasy or historical paradigm
except the self-defined "D&D" one).

** I'm talking here about everyone radiating a detectable
mystical alignment aura, not about the idea of alignment
as a behavior descriptor.
--
"I know I promised, Lord, never again. But I also know
that YOU know what a weak-willed person I am."
Symbol
2006-11-27 16:29:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Del Rio
Post by Symbol
.....or since only a handful of insane people and creatures are dedicated
to the abstract cause of Evil detecting someone's alignment doesn't tell
you nearly enough about them!
It does not follow that being able to see somebodies alignment aura means
you can tell what team they are on due to the very thing you've described!
Scrooge is Evil, he will detect as Evil but what does that tell you? He
hasn't directly harmed anyone (other than through neglect), he obeys the
laws of the land and is very much a part of the local community.
The fact that it might not tell you *everything* you need to
know about their behavior and affiliations
If you're sufficiently adept at making "realistic" Evil characters then
all it actually tells you is how they interact with other supernatural
devices in D&D. Like holy swords, artifacts and the like.
Post by Del Rio
still doesn't make a
very convincing argument for why I would want something so
inherently silly
In your opinion.
Post by Del Rio
and genre-breaking ** in my campaign (meaning
that it breaks nearly every fantasy or historical paradigm
except the self-defined "D&D" one).
How does it *break* any paradigm?
Del Rio
2006-11-27 19:42:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Symbol
Post by Del Rio
and genre-breaking ** in my campaign (meaning
that it breaks nearly every fantasy or historical paradigm
except the self-defined "D&D" one).
How does it *break* any paradigm?
Here's just one example: because once it's there, only fools
would fail to make use of it in order to make sure that the
people they're relying on are all wearing the same team jersey.
There go all the stories from history and literature that rely
on someone of "evil" moral character infiltrating a "good"
institution and betraying/destroying it from within. You just
make sure the staff is all wearing white, and you're in good
shape.

I also eliminate the spell "Detect Lie" for similar reasons.
--
"I know I promised, Lord, never again. But I also know
that YOU know what a weak-willed person I am."
Nikolas Landauer
2006-11-27 20:04:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Del Rio
Post by Symbol
How does it *break* any paradigm?
Here's just one example: because once it's there, only fools
would fail to make use of it in order to make sure that the
people they're relying on are all wearing the same team jersey.
I don't agree with this in the slightest. Those in power are rarely
all absolutists, and everyone has doubts and guilts (even if the things
about which they are guilty aren't enough to change their alignment).
I could see an Inquisition doing this, and (surprise surprise) most
people immediately get scared by and defiant towards Inquisitions.

Moreover, there are whole swathes of the moral/ethical spectrum who
would refuse to do this. It directly violates the ethos of Chaotic
Good (individualistic altruism), for example, in its rather powerful
violation of personal privacy.
Post by Del Rio
There go all the stories from history and literature that rely
on someone of "evil" moral character infiltrating a "good"
institution and betraying/destroying it from within.
There are methods to mask it, just like there are methods to mask
anything.
Post by Del Rio
I also eliminate the spell "Detect Lie" for similar reasons.
I like that spell, and I always have. It makes inquisitors lazy, and
partial truths, misleading truths and lies of omission are easy enough
for the intelligent to use.
--
Nik
Keith Davies
2006-11-30 03:17:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nikolas Landauer
Post by Del Rio
I also eliminate the spell "Detect Lie" for similar reasons.
I like that spell, and I always have. It makes inquisitors lazy, and
partial truths, misleading truths and lies of omission are easy enough
for the intelligent to use.
"Baronet Taltos, how did your former employer die?"
"Well, he was found in his office with a knife stuck in his left eye,
and I've observed to my collegues a number of times that he was clearly
suicidal."

(Vlad being questioned under the Orb, loosely quoted from memory)


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
***@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
***@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch
Sea Wasp
2006-11-30 23:59:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Davies
Post by Nikolas Landauer
Post by Del Rio
I also eliminate the spell "Detect Lie" for similar reasons.
I like that spell, and I always have. It makes inquisitors lazy, and
partial truths, misleading truths and lies of omission are easy enough
for the intelligent to use.
"Baronet Taltos, how did your former employer die?"
"Well, he was found in his office with a knife stuck in his left eye,
and I've observed to my collegues a number of times that he was clearly
suicidal."
(Vlad being questioned under the Orb, loosely quoted from memory)
"So you see, Luke, that what I told you was true... from a certain
point of view."
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
Symbol
2006-11-27 20:28:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Del Rio
Post by Symbol
Post by Del Rio
and genre-breaking ** in my campaign (meaning
that it breaks nearly every fantasy or historical paradigm
except the self-defined "D&D" one).
How does it *break* any paradigm?
Here's just one example: because once it's there, only fools
would fail to make use of it in order to make sure that the
people they're relying on are all wearing the same team jersey.
There go all the stories from history and literature that rely
on someone of "evil" moral character infiltrating a "good"
institution and betraying/destroying it from within. You just
make sure the staff is all wearing white, and you're in good
shape.
See now that's a fundamental mistake for a number of reasons. Your
first is the assumption that a person who pings as "Good" won't betray
you.

What about Good people who disagree with your specific philosphy? What
about Good people who are Evil wrt to the Goodness your institution
stands for (Alignment is about general moral attitudes remember)? It is
not incompatible for a Good person to hold a number of Evil beliefs.

What about Good people who are being co-erced into betraying you?

You're assuming team Jersey and by assuming it, making it true!

At the same time there are spells like Undetectable Alignment and Mind
Blank for a reason. You can even fool items with the UMD skill. I don't
recall if there is a spell that gives a false alignment reading. It is
certainly within the spirit of the rules for one to exist if not.
Post by Del Rio
I also eliminate the spell "Detect Lie" for similar reasons.
With most things in D&D there is a counter move. This is no exception
and if the countermeasures aren't extensive enough invent new ones
using the guidlines as as a base.
Matt Frisch
2006-12-01 07:24:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Del Rio
Post by Symbol
Post by Del Rio
and genre-breaking ** in my campaign (meaning
that it breaks nearly every fantasy or historical paradigm
except the self-defined "D&D" one).
How does it *break* any paradigm?
Here's just one example: because once it's there, only fools
would fail to make use of it in order to make sure that the
people they're relying on are all wearing the same team jersey.
Only fools would rely on such a vague instrument as alignment to base any
sort of serious decision regarding another person.

The fact that you see alignment as generating team jerseys simply means
that you are a fool.
Post by Del Rio
There go all the stories from history and literature that rely
on someone of "evil" moral character infiltrating a "good"
institution and betraying/destroying it from within.
With pervasive magic, it's a lot easier to simply read the other person's
thoughts or charm/dominate them and compel them to spill the beans on their
motives. Why? Because detecting their alignment really doesn't tell you
jack shit about their motives or goals.

A "good" organization is vulnerable to being infiltrated and destroyed by a
good aligned person. You don't have to be evil to oppose someone else's
good.

How about a pair of merchant houses, where one is sending a good aligned
minion to steal business plans from the other?

How about the evil mastermind who uses a careful stream of lies,
half-truths, and real truths placed in a bad light, to convince a good
person to infiltrate the organization for him? Or hell, just pays the guy.
Poor Good Guy has a sick mom and medicine is expensive.

Detecting alignment will not protect you at all.

On the reverse side, you have an evil person who wants to join a good
organization to aid them in combatting an even worse evil. Instead they
kick him to the curb and he can't give them the crucial warning they need.
Oops, your foolproof system has just destroyed you, fool.
Post by Del Rio
You just
make sure the staff is all wearing white, and you're in good
shape.
No, you're really not. Well, maybe you are. Competant roleplayers who
understand the alignment system aren't.
Random832
2006-12-01 12:30:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Del Rio
Post by Symbol
Post by Del Rio
and genre-breaking ** in my campaign (meaning
that it breaks nearly every fantasy or historical paradigm
except the self-defined "D&D" one).
How does it *break* any paradigm?
Here's just one example: because once it's there, only fools
would fail to make use of it in order to make sure that the
people they're relying on are all wearing the same team jersey.
Only fools would rely on such a vague instrument as alignment to base any
sort of serious decision regarding another person.
The fact that you see alignment as generating team jerseys simply means
that you are a fool.
Or that he has the not unreasonable belief that gamers, as a class, are
fools.
Symbol
2006-12-01 12:32:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Random832
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Del Rio
Post by Symbol
Post by Del Rio
and genre-breaking ** in my campaign (meaning
that it breaks nearly every fantasy or historical paradigm
except the self-defined "D&D" one).
How does it *break* any paradigm?
Here's just one example: because once it's there, only fools
would fail to make use of it in order to make sure that the
people they're relying on are all wearing the same team jersey.
Only fools would rely on such a vague instrument as alignment to base any
sort of serious decision regarding another person.
The fact that you see alignment as generating team jerseys simply means
that you are a fool.
Or that he has the not unreasonable belief that gamers, as a class, are
fools.
Such stupid generalizations are always unreasonable.
Bruce L Grubb
2006-12-01 13:07:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Symbol
Post by Random832
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Del Rio
Post by Symbol
Post by Del Rio
and genre-breaking ** in my campaign (meaning
that it breaks nearly every fantasy or historical paradigm
except the self-defined "D&D" one).
How does it *break* any paradigm?
Here's just one example: because once it's there, only fools
would fail to make use of it in order to make sure that the
people they're relying on are all wearing the same team jersey.
Only fools would rely on such a vague instrument as alignment to base
any sort of serious decision regarding another person.
The fact that you see alignment as generating team jerseys simply
means that you are a fool.
Or that he has the not unreasonable belief that gamers, as a class, are
fools.
Such stupid generalizations are always unreasonable.
First thing symbol has said in a LONG time I can fully agree with.
Symbol
2006-12-01 14:16:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Symbol
Post by Random832
Or that he has the not unreasonable belief that gamers, as a class, are
fools.
Such stupid generalizations are always unreasonable.
First thing symbol has said in a LONG time I can fully agree with.
Well done broken clock.
Nikolas Landauer
2006-11-27 19:59:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Del Rio
The fact that it might not tell you *everything* you need to
know about their behavior and affiliations still doesn't make a
very convincing argument for why I would want something so
inherently silly and genre-breaking ** in my campaign (meaning
that it breaks nearly every fantasy or historical paradigm
except the self-defined "D&D" one).
** I'm talking here about everyone radiating a detectable
mystical alignment aura, not about the idea of alignment
as a behavior descriptor.
You're making the same mistake so many do: Evil is not always wrong,
nor is Good always right. Right and wrong are subjective, Evil and
Good are simply descriptive terms.

Knowing someone is Evil tells you nothing about how to deal with them
that watching how they behave over a period of time wouldn't. In this
way, the /detect $alignment/ spells and abilities are just
observational shortcuts. If you don't want those shortcuts, remove
them. The alignments are still useful ways to quickly measure how a
person is affected by morally-charged magic (damaged by /holy smite/?
can pick up a /holy avenger/ without getting zapped?)

Team jersey play is not forced by alignment, nor is morally-ambiguous
play hampered by it.

The only thing alignment hampers is those too squeamish to accurately
label things according to game terms of art[1], and Klassen has
suggested replacing the D&D alignment terms with color names a number
of times well into double digits, and possibly over halfway towards
triple digits... And every time, people like Grubb snip his suggestion
and pretend he didn't make it, because it rips the guts out of their
"argument".

[1] And those like Gygax's original gamers, who actually *DID* want to
do things like declare a changed alignment just so they could use a
Holy Avenger while slaughtering innocents. This is not a problem with
alignment, it's a problem with shitty gamers.
--
Nik
David Klassen
2006-11-27 19:15:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Symbol
Post by Del Rio
Actually I should be clear: I don't mind alignment as a
convenient shorthand for how NPCs should be expected to behave.
I don't like the "detectable mystical aura" aspect of it. Evil
people, with the exception of a handful of insane people,
aren't dedicated to the abstract cause of Evil, and shouldn't
wear their affiliation on their sleeve: "team jersey" play
bores me, and I hate that anybody with access to some low level
spells automatically knows which side everyone is on.
.....or since only a handful of insane people and creatures are dedicated
to the abstract cause of Evil detecting someone's alignment doesn't tell
you nearly enough about them!
It does not follow that being able to see somebodies alignment aura means
you can tell what team they are on due to the very thing you've described!
Scrooge is Evil, he will detect as Evil but what does that tell you? He
hasn't directly harmed anyone (other than through neglect), he obeys the
laws of the land and is very much a part of the local community.
I like this. Also, it tells us whether or not Scrooge can wield the
+5 Holy Avenger or is thumped by an appropriate Smite spell.

If you want to have these kinds of moral interactions, then
they must be detectable at some level---the sword has to
"know" if you are Good or not. And if the sword can know, why
not *anyone*? Thus, the existance of moral interactions implies
the moral detectability.
Sea Wasp
2006-11-28 00:13:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Del Rio
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Del Rio
Beautifully put. Alignment still blows, though. ;-)
Alignment is like democracy. It's a terrible method of tracking the
moral/ethical behavior of characters. All the other game-mechanic
methods are worse.
All of them still end up relying on GM judgment calls.
Actually I should be clear: I don't mind alignment as a
convenient shorthand for how NPCs should be expected to behave.
I don't like the "detectable mystical aura" aspect of it.
That's a totally separate issue, however. There's many ways to handle
that, each appropriate for different campaigns.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
Del Rio
2006-11-28 01:15:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Del Rio
Actually I should be clear: I don't mind alignment as a
convenient shorthand for how NPCs should be expected to behave.
I don't like the "detectable mystical aura" aspect of it.
That's a totally separate issue, however. There's many ways to handle
that, each appropriate for different campaigns.
Yeah, but if we just admitted that almost anything can be good
if you do it well enough, then what would we bitch about?
--
"I know I promised, Lord, never again. But I also know
that YOU know what a weak-willed person I am."
Bruce L Grubb
2006-11-28 10:13:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Del Rio
Post by Sea Wasp
The fact is that alignment is a perfectly good tool. I've used it for
my entire gaming career. If you stick by the letter of the rules,
sure, you can run into trouble. Which is true of EVERY SINGLE GAME IN
EXISTENCE. RPG "rules" are guidelines, not true rules, because the
rules cannot cover every circumstance, and are not inherently adjusted
for the demands of every campaign -- and each different campaign has
hugely differing aspects which change the dynamics of the powers, the
strategies and tactics, and the proper interpretation of large
portions of the ruleset.
Beautifully put. Alignment still blows, though. ;-)
Alignment is like democracy. It's a terrible method of tracking the
moral/ethical behavior of characters. All the other game-mechanic
methods are worse.
Actually no. GURPS trait system is better in many repects. As
Stackpole pointed out over a decade ago not many games outside of D&D
even use alignment.
Post by Sea Wasp
All of them still end up relying on GM judgment calls.
But none have generated the kind of frothing at mouth lad mentility
that alignment does.
Sea Wasp
2006-11-28 14:01:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Del Rio
Post by Sea Wasp
The fact is that alignment is a perfectly good tool. I've used it for
my entire gaming career. If you stick by the letter of the rules,
sure, you can run into trouble. Which is true of EVERY SINGLE GAME IN
EXISTENCE. RPG "rules" are guidelines, not true rules, because the
rules cannot cover every circumstance, and are not inherently adjusted
for the demands of every campaign -- and each different campaign has
hugely differing aspects which change the dynamics of the powers, the
strategies and tactics, and the proper interpretation of large
portions of the ruleset.
Beautifully put. Alignment still blows, though. ;-)
Alignment is like democracy. It's a terrible method of tracking the
moral/ethical behavior of characters. All the other game-mechanic
methods are worse.
Actually no. GURPS trait system is better in many repects.
And worse in others, depending on application.
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Sea Wasp
All of them still end up relying on GM judgment calls.
But none have generated the kind of frothing at mouth lad mentility
that alignment does.
You being the primary example of this; perhaps if you just accepted
that it works perfectly well for many of us then the frothing at the
mouth would stop, and your shirts could stay dry WITHOUT being covered
with a bib.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
Marcel Beaudoin
2006-11-28 17:37:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Sea Wasp
All of them still end up relying on GM judgment calls.
But none have generated the kind of frothing at mouth lad mentility
that alignment does.
People that like to use alignment, will use alignment because, to them, it
adds something valuable to the game. Those that don't like alignment, don't
have to.

Simple as that.
David Klassen
2006-11-28 20:55:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Sea Wasp
Alignment is like democracy. It's a terrible method of tracking the
moral/ethical behavior of characters. All the other game-mechanic
methods are worse.
Actually no. GURPS trait system is better in many repects. As
That's like saying oranges are better than apples.
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Stackpole pointed out over a decade ago not many games outside of D&D
even use alignment.
So? How is that at all relavent? Are we supposed to judge
the usefulness of a game mechanic based on how many
other games use the mechanic?
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Sea Wasp
All of them still end up relying on GM judgment calls.
But none have generated the kind of frothing at mouth lad mentility
that alignment does.
Anecdote and therefore meaningless.
Matt Frisch
2006-12-01 07:30:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Del Rio
Post by Sea Wasp
The fact is that alignment is a perfectly good tool. I've used it for
my entire gaming career. If you stick by the letter of the rules,
sure, you can run into trouble. Which is true of EVERY SINGLE GAME IN
EXISTENCE. RPG "rules" are guidelines, not true rules, because the
rules cannot cover every circumstance, and are not inherently adjusted
for the demands of every campaign -- and each different campaign has
hugely differing aspects which change the dynamics of the powers, the
strategies and tactics, and the proper interpretation of large
portions of the ruleset.
Beautifully put. Alignment still blows, though. ;-)
Alignment is like democracy. It's a terrible method of tracking the
moral/ethical behavior of characters. All the other game-mechanic
methods are worse.
Actually no. GURPS trait system is better in many repects.
Well of course it is, you disingenuous coward. It is a system designed for
specificity, where alignment is not.

You're claiming that a paring knife is better for coring an apple than a
butcher's cleaver is, and therefore the cleaver is useless. You're a moron.
Post by Bruce L Grubb
As
Stackpole pointed out over a decade ago not many games outside of D&D
even use alignment.
So long as you ignore...well, everything Palladium has ever done..

Alignment doesn't fit all game systems. Ooh, witness the shock. Magic
doesn't fit very well into Top Secret, so magic must be a bad system for
all games. Witness the grubblogic in action, folks.
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Sea Wasp
All of them still end up relying on GM judgment calls.
But none have generated the kind of frothing at mouth lad mentility
that alignment does.
You could consider ceasing to froth at the mouth, and the "problem" would
be solved, since it is entirely in your head anyway.
David Klassen
2006-11-27 03:30:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce L Grubb
For the same reason people can't seen that alignment IS broken - they
What's broken? Come on, give me the list. The last time we
went around this, you didn't, so I compiled "your" list for you
and soundly refuted *each* *and* *every* *one*---of course
you stopped responding me to or snipped my refutations
while restating exactly what I'd refuted.

So, try again. What is broken? Not links; not long essays
by others on why they don't like alignment, or how they don't
use it, or how they say "everyone they know" doesn't like it.
Just a nice, simple list of what you claim is broken.
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Alignmentwise you really can't say much about him but traits give you
some baseline to gover his behavior.
If gover=cover, they yes. That's what alignment is: a descriptor
of general moral outlook. What's broken about that?
Matt Frisch
2006-12-01 07:12:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Ken Andrews
If you are using D&D alignment, then your "judgment call" simply
proves that alignment is broken, as it's not flexible. If it was
flexible, then you wouldn't need to make your "judgment call".
If you are using GURPS pacts and powers, then your judgment call is
reasonable extrapolation of the requirements of the gods on the part
of the GM. That demonstrates the flexibility of the system, as each
GM is allowed to decide what his gods consider right and proper.
These are quite obviously different; why don't you see that?
For the same reason people can't seen that alignment IS broken - they
simply do not want to admit there is something wrong with the system.
Asserted without evidence...again.
Bruce L Grubb
2006-12-01 13:13:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Ken Andrews
If you are using D&D alignment, then your "judgment call" simply
proves that alignment is broken, as it's not flexible. If it was
flexible, then you wouldn't need to make your "judgment call".
If you are using GURPS pacts and powers, then your judgment call is
reasonable extrapolation of the requirements of the gods on the part
of the GM. That demonstrates the flexibility of the system, as each
GM is allowed to decide what his gods consider right and proper.
These are quite obviously different; why don't you see that?
For the same reason people can't seen that alignment IS broken - they
simply do not want to admit there is something wrong with the system.
Asserted without evidence...again.
I have provided at least three urls, three dragon magazines articles,
and other stuff and all you have done like Sheff is claim there is no
evidence. Dog didn't hunt their will not hunt here.
David Klassen
2006-12-01 16:27:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Post by Matt Frisch
Post by Bruce L Grubb
For the same reason people can't seen that alignment IS broken - they
simply do not want to admit there is something wrong with the system.
Asserted without evidence...again.
I have provided at least three urls, three dragon magazines articles,
and other stuff and all you have done like Sheff is claim there is no
evidence. Dog didn't hunt their will not hunt here.
Your URL's were essays filled only with anecdote and assertions.
Referencing other people's assertions to back up your assertion
is not the same as providing evidence for your arguments.

The magazine articles did not say what you thought they said.

David Klassen
2006-11-27 03:22:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Which your fellow alignment defenders started and continue to do. Look
at what David Klassen did in the current 'Famous Persons or Characters
How DARE you!

I did NOT snip, then argue as if you hadn't said what I'd snipped.
I snipped for space---I *agreed* that Wonka was assigned alignments
that varried considerably and then pointed out *why*.
Post by Bruce L Grubb
was snipped which changed the whole thurst of my arguement!
You had no arguement---only an observation. Thus, to save space,
it was snippable. I didn't change ANYTHING and I did not argue
against anything you had said as if you had never said it.

I demand (though will not expect) an apology.
Bruce L Grubb
2006-12-01 13:10:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Klassen
Post by Bruce L Grubb
Which your fellow alignment defenders started and continue to do. Look
at what David Klassen did in the current 'Famous Persons or Characters
How DARE you!
How dare I show the cherry picking? :-)
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